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Author Topic: Miscarriage of Justice  (Read 6888 times)

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TA

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Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2010, 06:11:26 PM »

Do you think fetuses feel pain from miscarriage, but not from abortion?  Is that the factual break from reality here?
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Do you understand how terrifying the words “vibrating strap on” are for an asexual? That’s like saying “the holocaust” to a Jew.

Miss Cat Ears

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Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2010, 06:12:25 PM »

No, I don't.  But there's a right way and a wrong way to do things, and whether you agree or not, I see a huge difference.
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TA

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Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2010, 06:15:35 PM »

I agree that getting a proper abortion is, if possible, a far far safer choice than inducing a miscarriage.  But you're saying that difference is big enough to justify murder convictions for the latter.  And that's absurd.
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Do you understand how terrifying the words “vibrating strap on” are for an asexual? That’s like saying “the holocaust” to a Jew.

Detonator

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Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2010, 06:16:06 PM »

But then again, you might as well hit an animal over the head with a shovel instead of driving somewhere to have it put to sleep.  The intent's the same, right? Right?

I know you're being sarcastic, but I agree.  Are you saying I shouldn't be able to euthanize an animal I own with a shovel?  Why not?
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"Imagine punching somebody so hard that they turned into a door. Then you found out that's where ALL doors come from, and you got initiated into a murder club that makes doors. The stronger you punch, the better the door. So there are like super strong murderers who punch people into Venetian doors and shit"

Miss Cat Ears

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Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2010, 06:16:55 PM »

Again, I can live with having a different opinion than you.
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TA

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Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2010, 06:17:53 PM »

But then again, you might as well hit an animal over the head with a shovel instead of driving somewhere to have it put to sleep.  The intent's the same, right? Right?

I know you're being sarcastic, but I agree.  Are you saying I shouldn't be able to euthanize an animal I own with a shovel?  Why not?

It's not even a good analogy on that level, because killing an animal with a shovel isn't an instant painless process like being put down at a vet.  Unlike a miscarriage, there are issues of cruelty involved.
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Do you understand how terrifying the words “vibrating strap on” are for an asexual? That’s like saying “the holocaust” to a Jew.

Detonator

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Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2010, 06:19:44 PM »

Well, it depends on how big the animal in question is.

Nonetheless, I will split this now.  Hold on.
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"Imagine punching somebody so hard that they turned into a door. Then you found out that's where ALL doors come from, and you got initiated into a murder club that makes doors. The stronger you punch, the better the door. So there are like super strong murderers who punch people into Venetian doors and shit"

inyandep

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Re: Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2010, 06:27:54 PM »

typically if you're drinking bleach or some of the more insane (read: pointlessly overblown) methods posited here, you're probably legally insane anyways

and since abortions are legal and safe and acceptable because of the supreme court

you're going to be in someway mentally infirm to intentionally miscarry which is a tremendous strain on a person's physical and mental health

so sure if you want to hurt people who are mentally insane or otherwise who have made legitimate accidents then sure rad this law is a keeper. otherwise it is basically a foot in the door for expanding to slowly edge out killin' your womb-babies.
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Detonator

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Re: Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2010, 06:37:31 PM »

Again, I can live with having a different opinion than you.

Quote from: Real World Posting Guidelines
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    * dismiss criticism with "IT'S MY OPINION AND I'M ENTITLED TO IT"
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Now, I'm not putting you UNDER ARREST for rulebreaking, or singling you out for disagreeing with me.  I'm just saying this IS a debate board, and refusing to actually debate your posted opinions is frustrating for all of us.  You're pretty much leaving us hanging after getting us riled up with your dissenting opinion.  Again, if you don't want to debate, no one's going to punish you.  Just try not to do something like that again.
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"Imagine punching somebody so hard that they turned into a door. Then you found out that's where ALL doors come from, and you got initiated into a murder club that makes doors. The stronger you punch, the better the door. So there are like super strong murderers who punch people into Venetian doors and shit"

Miss Cat Ears

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Re: Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2010, 06:44:29 PM »

Saying "that's absurd" without anything other than OPINION to back it up - what is the difference?  When asked to explain my position, I did - several times.  At this point if my explanation isn't "good enough" for you, that is your problem, not mine.
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TA

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Re: Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2010, 06:56:21 PM »

Saying "that's absurd" without anything other than OPINION to back it up - what is the difference?  When asked to explain my position, I did - several times.  At this point if my explanation isn't "good enough" for you, that is your problem, not mine.

You never bothered explaining why it's perfectly acceptable to pay a doctor to terminate your pregnancy, on the assumption that you can find one, but it's murder to do it yourself.  Except by outrageously inapt analogy.  It's absurd because it makes no sense.  Your stated opinion is internally inconsistent, save for some miracle exception that you don't seem interested in sharing beyond "That's just how I feel".  It's intellectually dishonest.
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Do you understand how terrifying the words “vibrating strap on” are for an asexual? That’s like saying “the holocaust” to a Jew.

Miss Cat Ears

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Re: Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2010, 06:57:53 PM »

I did explain.  My explanation is that some things I'm okay with. Some things I'm not.  I never said anything was right or wrong legally and there's a huge difference.
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TA

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Re: Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2010, 07:00:05 PM »

For like the fifth goddamn time: what is the material distinction that you between these two things that causes you to be okay with one and want to see the other punished as murder?
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Do you understand how terrifying the words “vibrating strap on” are for an asexual? That’s like saying “the holocaust” to a Jew.

inyandep

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Re: Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2010, 07:07:30 PM »

Saying "that's absurd" without anything other than OPINION to back it up - what is the difference?  When asked to explain my position, I did - several times.  At this point if my explanation isn't "good enough" for you, that is your problem, not mine.
the difficulty is that how are you really going to determine what is an 'intentional' miscarriage. which is something you seem to be taking for granted and in fact list several circumstances, such as i guess drinking bleach or shocking your stomach with a car battery or making a superman leap off of a second story building or any number of wildly psychotic methods.

for those sort of things that are that wildly irrational and also have some sort of malicious, self-destructive intent, we already have social rules and laws. those people are harming themselves.

now, we are left with the other situations. these are a wide variety of other circumstances where a woman could have a miscarriage where there's not really a clearly defined intent. so it's perfectly cool to waste taxpayer money and inflict stress on people who have undergone miscarriages just to determine whether or not they killed a cluster of cells that after an appropriate gestation process will have external senses and an understanding of self.

i think the main problem here is that this law is targeted towards punishing women for not carrying their children to term, which is not typically done with malign intent and it's very difficult to prove if it is done so. considering that the morning-after pill can be considered miscarriage under the guidelines and condoms are never 100% effective, it falls well in line with the idea that children are a punishment and an obligation for the sexual act.

not that it's really acceptable for a woman to purposely inflict a miscarriage on themselves, but in our society, where abortion clinics are seen by many as socially unacceptable and the process of having an abortion can bear a stigma, as well as the scarcity and the fact that minors can be barred from having one if their legal guardians don't find it acceptable, i don't really see why we should be legislating something like this. especially considering that a large number of women who have miscarriages are adversely affected psychologically, and being scrutinized as if you've somehow intentionally murdered a fetus is really not a proper thing to do.

really, if this law is waiting signature, then it means that people are apparently having enough forced miscarriages that it has become a social problem in need of rectification, and honestly the response to that should be a broadening of family planning services instead of some psychotic fundamentalist witch-hunt to ensure that if a woman falls down the stairs it wasn't due to some murderous urge to kill the human growing inside her.

Warning - while you were typing 3 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

I did explain.  My explanation is that some things I'm okay with. Some things I'm not.  I never said anything was right or wrong legally and there's a huge difference.
Quote from: Real World Posting Guidelines
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    * be prepared to defend your viewpoint using facts, logic, and external sources.
then honestly if your only defense is "well people shouldn't drink bleach" and then "well i'm okay with some things and sometimes i'm not" is this the right place for it? i want to clarify my post above due to this: i think it's wrong for people to intentionally miscarry, but i don't find it something that should be legislated because a) it's not really anyone else's business and b) the law as it exists can be used to infringe on the rights of women.
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Miss Cat Ears

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Re: Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #54 on: February 25, 2010, 07:09:02 PM »

For like the fifth goddamn time:  I see it as okay to have an abortion or put an animal to sleep.  I DO NOT see it as okay to beat an animal to death or inhumanely terminate a pregnancy by drinking bleach.  I've said this before.  I'm going to keep saying it.
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inyandep

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Re: Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2010, 07:10:53 PM »

For like the fifth goddamn time:  I see it as okay to have an abortion or put an animal to sleep.  I DO NOT see it as okay to beat an animal to death or inhumanely terminate a pregnancy by drinking bleach.  I've said this before.  I'm going to keep saying it.
and again, fucking irrelevant.
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Miss Cat Ears

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Re: Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2010, 07:12:16 PM »

And again, stating my opinion, not something that's a fact or not, is totally different from stating whether something is right or wrong.  Do you attack people of other religions the same way? 
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Catloaf

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Re: Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2010, 07:12:22 PM »

The government should not have power over people's intimate personal lives.  Especially if it creates an implied inequality between one or more groups of people.  FUCK THESE CONSERVATIVE ASSHATS!!
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McDohl

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Re: Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2010, 07:14:13 PM »

The government should not have power over people's intimate personal lives. 
My opinion in a nutshell.
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TA

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Re: Miscarriage of Justice
« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2010, 07:14:39 PM »

For like the fifth goddamn time:  I see it as okay to have an abortion or put an animal to sleep.  I DO NOT see it as okay to beat an animal to death or inhumanely terminate a pregnancy by drinking bleach.  I've said this before.  I'm going to keep saying it.

For the sixth time, then: Why?  What is the difference?  What is your definition of "inhumane" that you are somehow finding applicable to a mass of cells incapable of sensation or awareness, and how does it equate terminating a pregnancy to beating an animal to death?

Opinions can and are factually inaccurate, or founded on non-logic applied to false facts.  And yeah, when we're talking about something being writ into law?  That fucking matters.
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Do you understand how terrifying the words “vibrating strap on” are for an asexual? That’s like saying “the holocaust” to a Jew.
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