Topic: Starcraft II (Read 33076 times)

Frocto · « **Reply #140 on:** May 26, 2010, 10:15:48 AM »

I need to go to bed :(

Makaris · « **Reply #141 on:** May 26, 2010, 10:20:00 AM »

Whaaaat? I mean, they ARE shaking things up 'a bit', or more than a bit depending on your POV, so I don't really understand what you are getting at? Were the implemented changes not enough for your personal tastes? Are you hung up on the fact they decided burrowing didn't need changing? So far all the ideas you have proposed have been pretty much awful for implementation SC.

OTHER games can do what they want with the RTS formula, but it would be inappropriate for StarCraft to totally redesign itself from step one when they had such an incredibly good basis to work off of. SF2 > SFALpha > SF3 were small steps building upon a solid foundation. Guilty Gear can go off and do more zany stuff, that's okay too. Sometimes it pays off to go out there with new ideas if you are starting fresh. But even Guilty Gear respects the foundations of what a Fighting Game is.

I think you may be strawmanning me if anything. When I said 'It's Not Worth It' it was in reference to the decision Blizzard made to not mess with the mechanics of burrowing. I didn't say everything should stay the same just because it's already good. You're inferring that... for some reason I can't really figure out, as I never said that. Obviously if they are making a new game they outta change some things, or else it's the same game. But such things should be considered carefully; you shouldn't try to reinvent something that works perfectly great just because you can.

Mongrel · « **Reply #142 on:** May 26, 2010, 10:43:08 AM »

I think you guys are simply running into the same problem we had yesterday, where one half of the peanut gallery thinks they're arguing exclusively about StarCraft or Blizzizzard-style RTS and the other half thinks they're arguing general principles across the entire industry, with SC2 just being a convenient starting point.

Makaris · « **Reply #143 on:** May 26, 2010, 10:46:45 AM »

Maybe? Thing is, these design principles are pretty universal. If you want to think in the short term and appeal to casual interest, you are free to go hog wild with new features and whatever. But here we have a game who's intended design goal is be a competitive, balanced game that will be a new esport to rival SC1. The best way to go about doing that is stick with the original principles, make changes in small increments, and test-test-test.

Mongrel · « **Reply #144 on:** May 26, 2010, 11:04:15 AM »

See I dunno, in the art world (ha ha) it's a truism that people are overly comfortable and don't know what they want until someone makes the 'next essential'.

Sure oftentimes the next essential is just a flash-in-the-pan trend, and sure, there's "no such thing as an original thought blah blah blah", but sometimes the next essential is talking pictures.

I think that those rare beautiful works of genius that flip everything on it's ear are every bit as important as the slow measured gains of the prudential plodder. Something can be new, yet also be lasting and balanced. It's simply a matter of the amount and quality of work and thought devoted to it. It seems ignorant to me that anyone could say that all new things are inherently poorly-made.

Hell, you guys are ALL making a lot of really strong blanket statements, but reality doesn't work like that. There are always exceptions and strange things going on... except when there aren't! making new stuff is part of this.

EDIT: Wait. You reply to my post with "maybe" and then go right back to talking exclusively about Starcraft 2. If Frocto isn't really talking about Starcraft... what's the point of doing that? I CONFUSED.

EDIT2: My paragraphs above have pretty much nothing to do with StarCraft.

EDIT3: esport? [record needle scratch sound]

Oh god, please don't do that again.

Please?

Niku · « **Reply #145 on:** May 26, 2010, 11:13:01 AM »

go away mongrel

Mongrel · « **Reply #146 on:** May 26, 2010, 11:19:23 AM »

Poppycock!

Makaris · « **Reply #147 on:** May 26, 2010, 11:23:18 AM »

Well, thousands upon thousands of dollars exchange hands in professional matches, people are flown around the world to compete in world tournaments... people take SC1 pretty seriously. Kayin wasn't kidding when he was saying it's the most successful competitive video game ever made. SC2 might be able to make the esport scene more popular in the west. I hope so, but we shall see!

I'm not really sure what point Frocto is trying to make, as every post seems to kinda transition from one weird statement to another. The latest iteration seems to be accusing me of saying that I wouldn't want there to ever be any change ever, which I never said. Pretty much every idea proposed by anyone in this thread would be terrible. Maybe they wouldn't be, and I'd be perfectly fine if some other game was made to try to experiment with the formula. That's never bad! But again I repeat; that isn't what should be done with StarCraft 2.

I'm not really trying to make blanket statements, but I am expressing facts tempered by knowledge that Kayin and I know what we're talking about.

It doesn't matter if we bounce from SC2 specifics or universal RTS design as long the discussion doesn't become totally lame finger pointing. Which it has!

Kayin · « **Reply #148 on:** May 26, 2010, 11:27:10 AM »

esports is a dumb term but its the term that is being used so whatever. Calling it pro gaming isn't much better, for different reason (I can say I'm into esports then it's like wait, video games are sports? And if I say I'm a pro gamer than wait, I'm a pro? Whatever).

It's just a term so we know what we're talking about, so can we just ignore how silly the etymology of the term might be?

Makaris · « **Reply #149 on:** May 26, 2010, 11:28:00 AM »

I've only ever heard it called esports within the SC community. I didn't even know people were whining about the terminology. That's pretty dumb!

Joxam · « **Reply #150 on:** May 26, 2010, 11:29:33 AM »

Iron Mongrel is incapable of letting anything be, ever. This has been established rock solidly over the last few years and turned into a groan worthy 'why is he even posting half the time' shtick.

Makaris · « **Reply #151 on:** May 26, 2010, 11:32:36 AM »

I shall incorporate that knowledge into my future posting habits. Thank you noble posters.

... gotta add that I like the term Esports, cause it's immediately recognizable with what it means and all the things that might imply.

Mongrel · « **Reply #152 on:** May 26, 2010, 11:34:53 AM »

Quote from: Joxam on May 26, 2010, 11:29:33 AM

Iron Mongrel is incapable of letting anything be, ever. This has been established rock solidly over the last few years and turned into a groan worthy 'why is he even posting half the time' shtick.

Complete and total boredom.

No. Really.

@ Makaris: Upon re-reading, my last post sounds really asshole-ish, which I didn't intend. Sorry!

Makaris · « **Reply #153 on:** May 26, 2010, 11:39:22 AM »

Quote from: Mongrel on May 26, 2010, 11:34:53 AM

Quote from: Joxam on May 26, 2010, 11:29:33 AM
Iron Mongrel is incapable of letting anything be, ever. This has been established rock solidly over the last few years and turned into a groan worthy 'why is he even posting half the time' shtick.
No. Really.

@ Makaris: Upon re-reading, my last post sounds really asshole-ish, which I didn't intend. Sorry!

Haha, are you kidding I lived with Kayin for like a week one time. I'm okay! :D

Kayin · « **Reply #154 on:** May 26, 2010, 11:51:58 AM »

Bongo Bill · « **Reply #155 on:** May 26, 2010, 12:35:39 PM »

I'm jumping into this thread. All you micro-haters may want to check out experimental open-source RTS Globulation2, which probably sucks, but whose basic idea is that you can't control individual units, no matter how much you may want to. You just say "This needs to be done" or "I need this ratio of unit types" and the AI figures out how to make that happen.

Anyway, I'm not getting into the debate, because I know Starcraft isn't for me. I came in here because I read an article about the game where they showed off a neat singleplayer feature: sort of advanced play micro tutorial things, little drills that teach the little fiddly bullshit micromanagement skills that you need in order to actually have a fucking idea of what's happening in a multiplayer match. This is a brilliant concept and I don't know why I never heard of anybody doing anything like it before. I love it when games actually teach you how to play them.

Makaris · « **Reply #156 on:** May 27, 2010, 08:24:08 PM »

With the new ladder, I got Diamond League. Where the players are better and, should you manage to beat them, they will disconnect to deny you any points for your victory.

Detonator · « **Reply #157 on:** May 27, 2010, 08:33:59 PM »

Some things never change.

Though hey, you can probably send the replays to Blizz and have their beta accounts banned. Fuckers shouldn't care so much about beta standings anyway.

Ziiro · « **Reply #158 on:** July 27, 2010, 01:04:53 PM »

Got my Collectors edition right here...

...On my desk at work. Three hours to go.

Wonder if I should install SC+BW on my work computer.

Hmmmm.

Esperath · « **Reply #159 on:** July 27, 2010, 03:36:00 PM »

Quote from: Ziiro on July 27, 2010, 01:04:53 PM

Three hours to go.

Plus or minus 24855 days.

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Author Topic: Starcraft II (Read 33076 times)