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Author Topic: Feminism  (Read 2192 times)

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Brentai

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2010, 07:05:51 PM »

treating them equal

No.

Unless you're going to completely restructure the laws and rulings on sexual harassment, overturn affirmative action, and push for more corporations to offer paid paternity leave, there is no "equal".  And you should stop asking for "equal", or women will get kicked back to the 60s at least.

That two human beings that do an equal amount of work should earn the same amount of compensation is just basic, obvious math.  Pretending that one gender does not need concessions in order to healthfully carry and deliver a child is asinine.  Pretending that there is no cultural bias against one gender, no matter how much you wish people were smarter than that, is unrealistic.

But if the fairer sex wants to be placed back on the slippery uphill slope they started on, without any rope, then be my guest.  There's nothing I enjoy more than self-inflicted schadenfreude.
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Royal☭

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2010, 07:13:12 PM »

Brentai, sexual harassment laws work both ways (but that's not about some innate quality of either gender, it's about protection in the workplace), affirmative action is about making sure that qualified individuals aren't denied jobs because of their gender, race, orientation or anything other than the job (not the oft-used excuse of taking jobs from more qualified white, male people), and I'm of the belief that both parents should get equal leave for a birth.


But these aren't things that necessarily be tied to gender.  They're tied to be treating as an equal human.  Don't try and twist the word "equal" to mean "women should suffer for things men don't have to".  That's just unfair.

Brentai

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2010, 07:22:11 PM »

I'm not, Soup.  But these things are in place because, women or whatever, we ain't all equal here.  Some of us need certain things others don't.  Pretending that's not the case leads to "x suffering for things y don't have to".

Campaign for rights if you must, but don't campaign for something that doesn't exist.  Not until modern medicine lets me enjoy childbirth and multiple orgasms, anyway.
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Royal☭

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2010, 07:25:42 PM »

We seem to have differing versions of equality. 

When I say equality, I mean that women shouldn't be punished or treated differently just because they have periods or get pregnant or because men are assholes.

You seem to view equality as them having to just deal with that stuff.  In my mind, that's not equality.

Büge

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2010, 07:28:51 PM »

"We want to be treated like we're human beings"

That's pretty much the definition of feminism as I know it. It's about access and awareness and the right to choose and maintaining a critical eye on things that would do individuals a disservice. Stuff like recognizing that able-bodied heterosexual middle-class educated white people aren't some kind of gold standard and that people's bodies are their own.
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Büge

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2010, 07:30:48 PM »

We seem to have differing versions of equality. 

When I say equality, I mean that you should hold the door for everybody.

You seem to view equality as letting it slam in everybody's face.
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Royal☭

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2010, 07:32:15 PM »

 :wat:

Büge

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2010, 07:38:29 PM »

You seem to view equality as letting it slam in everybody's face.

Backlash from the "chivalry is dead" school of thought. "If women want equality they can hold the door open themselves," and so on. Rather than being nice to everyone, they seem to think it gives them license to stop being nice to women.
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Royal☭

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2010, 07:39:41 PM »

I'm of the opinion that it's just nice to hold the door for everyone.  But maybe that's just me?  It's never really been about gender, just politeness.

Brentai

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2010, 07:53:15 PM »

I mean that women shouldn't be punished or treated differently just because they have periods or get pregnant or because men are assholes.

No the first, yes the second.

How is "not making them have to just deal with it" not treating them differently?  If they are exactly the same as men, they don't get pregnant, right?

I don't have a problem with giving women the rights that they are fucking well entitled to.  But having an entirely different set of needs that we're working to address and saying "Oh but we're exactly the same..." - no.  That's the sort of precociousness that undermines the feminist movement.  It's way subtler than believing men are dumb brutish assholes, but it's just as prickly.
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Zach

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2010, 07:59:25 PM »

Okay this makes sense.  I don't have an overwhelming opinion either way so I wouldn't be a feminist but this is a much better explanation than what I usually hear.  Is there any "official" definition?

Not a definition that is commonly agreed upon, no. This thread has outlined some of the basic splits: essentialist (there are attitudes that are uniquely/essentially womanly) vs. social constructivist (everything about being womanly is taught/enforced by society), feminism as a radical stance of activism vs. the quiet belief that women are people, and the exact definition of equality.

Most definitions boil down to the bumper sticker slogan professing that "feminism is the radical notion that women are people." Compressing the definitions that far destroys a lot of the nuance, however.

On my right, I have one definition by feminist theorist bell hooks (who one can quickly tell is pretty radical, on account of her challenging of capital letters): "Simply put, feminism is a movement to end sexism, sexist exploitation, and oppression... Practically, it is a definition which implies that all sexist thinking and action is the problem, whether those who perpetuate it are female or male, child or adult. It is also broad enough to include an understanding of systemic institutionalized sexism.

From its earliest inception feminist movement was polarized. Reformist thinkers chose to emphasize gender equality. Revolutionary thinkers did not want simply to alter the existing system so that women would have more rights. We wanted to transform that system, to bring an end to patriarchy and sexism... The vision of "women's liberation" which captured and still holds the public imagination was the one representing women as wanting what men had. And this was the vision that was easier to realize. Changes in our nation's economy, economic depression, the loss of jobs, etc. made the climate ripe for our nation's citizens to accept the notion of gender equality in the workforce.

Five responses while I'm typing this? Daaang.
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Royal☭

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2010, 08:02:19 PM »

In what world is firing a woman because she gets pregnant equality?  The point of equality is to ensure that these things, the things that do make us different don't interfere with our lives.  It means if a woman gets pregnant, if a person is in a wheelchair, if they're blind, if they're black, if they're gay, if they're different they don't get treated differently.

Of course, you also ignore that I stated I support equal paternity and maternity leave.  I also think they should get these leaves if they adopt.

Brentai

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2010, 08:16:14 PM »

In what world is firing a woman because she gets pregnant equality?

The same one where a man gets fired if he gets pregnant, obviously.
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Thad

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2010, 08:18:10 PM »

Unless you're going to completely restructure the laws and rulings on sexual harassment, overturn affirmative action, and push for more corporations to offer paid paternity leave, there is no "equal".

"Paid" is a keyword here, because in fact corporations ARE required to offer paternity leave, they're just not required to pay for it.  Technically they're not required to pay for maternity leave either -- in the eyes of the FMLA, both parents ARE equal.  (Indeed, people who adopt children are too; pregnancy has nothing to do with it.)
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sei

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Re: Culture Wars
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2010, 09:17:41 AM »

affirmative action is about making sure that qualified individuals aren't denied jobs because of their gender, race, orientation or anything other than the job (not the oft-used excuse of taking jobs from more qualified white, male people)
Please explain "redress" to me.
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Büge

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2010, 08:03:29 AM »



heh
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Mongrel

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2011, 06:19:24 AM »

I knew there was a thread for this kinda thing somewhere.

This might be the best put-together essay on historical gender roles that I've ever seen

Granted it's not like I read essays on gender roles very often. It's just a very well-done argument and a nice read. He doesn't seem to be making any value judgments about society today and is mostly just looking at our current circumstances and how they came to be.
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Büge

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Bal

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2011, 11:33:07 AM »

There's a huge spectrum of shit that supposedly falls under the definition of feminism, but I'd rather that concept be thrown out entirely in favor of humanism. We're not all beautiful and unique snow flakes, and we're not all equal, but it doesn't have anything to do with our race or sex unless there are other associated pressures. Those should be alleviated, of course, but when you champion a sex, or race, you run the risk of championing that cause OVER the others, rather than simply seeking equal treatment.

I'm not claiming that there are no issues of sexism left in the world, that would be insane. I just believe in a more generalized approach to inequality and oppression.

I guess it comes down to the fact that I really just don't trust anyone who takes any single idea too seriously. Ideologues freak me out.
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Pacobird

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2011, 11:46:48 AM »

I hate feminists who act like women are way better than men instead of equal. Does that make me feminist?

Third Wave Feminism, as I understand it, stands for the prospect that women are people, and leaves it at that.

It sounded great until I thought about it a bit more and realized that we find it unexpectedly difficult to define what people are.
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