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Author Topic: Don't you know there's a war on?  (Read 77190 times)

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Mongrel

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #460 on: March 20, 2011, 08:54:48 PM »

That, uh, Wiki article about the former Justice minister is actually pretty complimentary. I mean, Amnesty International seemed to think he was okay. And while they can be a bit silly at time, I'm going to cede to them here.

And the US pasted Libya flat today because Ghaddafi violated two truces in under 24 hours. I mean COMPLETELY ignored them. He declared a ceasefire and the tanks didn't even pause.

Like, I understand that in war "rules" are often silly and that brutal reality means they are ignored (even when obeying them is actually sensible and helps with the prosecution of a war, like when you treat prisoners nicely so that your opponents surrender easy). But truces are generally sacred for very good and practical reasons.
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Royal☭

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #461 on: March 20, 2011, 09:05:58 PM »

That, uh, Wiki article about the former Justice minister is actually pretty complimentary. I mean, Amnesty International seemed to think he was okay. And while they can be a bit silly at time, I'm going to cede to them here.

Well, the international community waited until this guy was more firmly in charge before deciding to go ahead with the invasion. And given what a hodgepodge of scumbags the international community is, I think that says a lot as well.

But moreover, I pointed out the Wiki just to note how a former stooge of Qaddafi is leading the rebellion against him. It's easy to use the language of human rights merely to bolster one's own standing the world. For a more prominent example, see Barack Obama.

And the US pasted Libya flat today because Ghaddafi violated two truces in under 24 hours. I mean COMPLETELY ignored them. He declared a ceasefire and the tanks didn't even pause.

Like, I understand that in war "rules" are often silly and that brutal reality means they are ignored (even when obeying them is actually sensible and helps with the prosecution of a war, like when you treat prisoners nicely so that your opponents surrender easy). But truces are generally sacred for very good and practical reasons.

You misunderstand my point. Air strikes are messy, imprecise, and rarely, rarely used with the intent of "just hitting military targets". From World War II to Vietnam to Desert Storm to Kosovo and Syria and Pakistan, air strikes are a form of shock and awe intended to just take out as many "enemies" as possible. And when their targets are inside civilian cities, the pretense of doing it to save innocent lives just flies out the window.

In short, by the time this war is done (2025?), Obama and Co. will have probably killed more civilians than Qaddafi ever could have.

Mongrel

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #462 on: March 21, 2011, 02:58:37 AM »

Actually Constantine, you're way overthinking air strikes. Never ascribe to malice, etc.

Ground troops take time, are expensive, and make lots of people at home upset. Westerners are lazy and pampered and have been sheltered from the realities of the world for many years now.

Western governments don't drop air strikes because they WANT TO KILL KILL KILL BLOODLUST OMG, but because we're soft and would prefer not to do anything difficult. So we play armchair videogame general with the "DROP BOMBS" button instead of actually going and fighting and just rationalize the extra casualties away. That's why air strikes are always the first choice and that's why we never send enough troops to get a job done anymore on the occasions when we DO send troops.

But I still think the current situation is vastly better than letting Ghaddafi just mow his own people down. I mean I understand that you think this is Imperialism and trumped up excuses, but what exactly did you think was going to happen if nobody had intervened? As I said earlier, this is Momar Gaddafi we're talking about. He actually came out and said "There will be no mercy!". Even if you mistrust recent reports, he has a fourty-two year record we can consult for guidance.
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Bal

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #463 on: March 21, 2011, 03:21:41 AM »

I understand that you grew into political adulthood during the Bush administration, but you're actually starting to bore me with your relentless cynicism here, Constantine.
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Royal☭

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #464 on: March 21, 2011, 05:06:50 AM »

Good for you, Bal, although I'm starting to suspect you've never actually read a history book.

Mongrel came on here being a cheerleader for the next American/Muslim war, and I'm offering evidence that maybe, just maybe, this isn't the war that is someone how Different from the last 100 years of American conflict. The USA has never entered a war for any reason except personal economic reasons.

Hell, I don't even trust Obama. In his first year, he intensified the war in Afghanistan, stepped up unmanned drone attacks in Paksitan and Yemen, and is still continuing to operate
torturous, illegal military bases abroad. He's ignored the actual genocidal actions of the Israelis against the Palestinians, and he's even stepped up the abuse and attacks on whistle-blowers at home.

What sudden US involvement in Libyan says to me is not that America has finally grown a conscious and decided to bring liberty and prosperity to a blighted people, but that the rebellion has developed favorable US leadership and will be pliant when Qaddafi is out of the way. This also sends a valuable lesson to the rest of the Muslim world that they better put the brakes on their own attempts to secure Democracy or we will start bombing them.

You'll forgive me for having thought that growing up during several failed wars and "peace actions" across the globe (Not just Bush II, but Clinton, Bush I and Reagan, as well), and after witnessing just how horrible a human being our current president is, that I simply don't believe America is going to war for any reason than America's self-interest. And I won't stand by and watch people I know are capable of compassion suddenly cheerleader like neocons in 2003 just because the man in the White House has a D next to his name.


And for the record, part of it is personal. Mongrel had the temerity to actually refer to it as a Just War, and if there's any reason to legitimately ball-slap a man in public that is it.

Brentai

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #465 on: March 21, 2011, 08:50:04 AM »

At this point I'm just going to shrug and accept the fact that I happen to be a benefactor of this dirty-Muslim-kicking-over habit my elected officials have adopted.  It seems a lot more productive than whining about it anyway, even if only personally.
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Brentai

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #466 on: March 21, 2011, 08:51:29 AM »

I mean when you get right down to it your choices in this country are to take your piece of the pie or let the fatass oil baron eat it.
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Royal☭

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #467 on: March 21, 2011, 09:06:09 AM »

See but the point unless you are making over $100 million a year you do not benefit. You, Brentai, will gain nothing from this occupation, but every Tomahawk missile is equivalent to the yearly salaries of 20 teachers.

Cait

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #468 on: March 21, 2011, 09:07:20 AM »

This also sends a valuable lesson to the rest of the Muslim world that they better put the brakes on their own attempts to secure Democracy or we will start bombing them.

Isn't the bombing related to the exact opposite of that statement?
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Classic

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #469 on: March 21, 2011, 10:02:25 AM »

Only if you believe in the fundamental benevolence/comptence of first world militaries, I think that's constantine's point.
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Mongrel

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #470 on: March 21, 2011, 03:39:18 PM »

This also sends a valuable lesson to the rest of the Muslim world that they better put the brakes on their own attempts to secure Democracy or we will start bombing them.

Isn't the bombing related to the exact opposite of that statement?
Only if you believe in the fundamental benevolence/comptence of first world militaries, I think that's constantine's point.


Not really. It still doesn't make sense even if you parse it that way.

Constantine, just when exactly did you become a raving ideologue.

When I called this a Just War, that referred specifically to the fact that it would be less immoral to start shooting then to stand by and do nothing. That's all. I asked you what you would have had us done and instead of replying you went on a tirade about US imperialism. In fact the only inkling I have of what possibly reply you might have made is when you refer to the "last 100 years" - can we assume this places you in the school of thought that says the US should have stayed out of World War II?

As powerful and influential as the US is, it's an incredible disservice to the rest of the world to simply claim this war is the US's. They are certainly lobbing the most ordnance, but this is not the US's war, nor is it part of the US's personal agenda. In fact the Administration has already announced their intention to hand off formal command within days. As much as you want this to be the US's war, so you can rail against the evil empire, it's not. The French (and to a lesser degree, the English) pushed it, and continue to drive it. Even the Arab league was behind this, though they're not happy with overkill*. The US wants little to do with this, outside of a few hawkish senators who would be happy to throttle Ghaddafi with their bare hands on national TV.

I suppose the US could do another unexpected 180 in the next 48 hours, with Obama suddenly putting on an outfit stolen from Snidley Whiplash, twirling his mustache and throwing all the Libyan widows out to steal their oil, but what if they don't? What if they do hand off command and recede to a lesser role?

When you speak of "Pliant leadership" you dismiss the locals out of hand. You think the average person in the Middle East isn't aware of the pitfalls of asking for help from the US? Yet they chose to do so - they judged their need was bad enough. But this does not mean that these people are going to just fold, or let themselves be taken advantage of.

You also make the same mistake the Chinese make about democracy. Democracy is something that is seen as "Western" or "American" but the fact that western Democracies have allowed themselves to become corrupt and bloated and to let their institutions fall apart, does not mean that it is wrong for other nations to pursue freedom or democracy, nor does it make it immoral or stupid for those nations to ask for the West's help when they feel they should do so. All it means is that Democracy works best when the average citizen has a stake in it and has a visceral understanding of the collective responsibilities that comes with a vote. Let me tell you, these people understand that far better than most US citizens do. Frankly we are children here. We live soft pampered lives. Even our western militaries. Out there is where the real adults are, fighting and dying.

A Canadian is about as jaded about US influence as you're going to get short of people who have suffered violence at the hands of the American military, and even I'm still not going to say that everything the US does is going to automatically turn to shit.

*One thing I'll always be happy to concede is the rather trigger-happy nature of the US forces. Though, as stated above, the continuing violation of ceasefires on the part of the regime may justify a response that seems disproportionate right now. I would need to learn more about the actual tactical objectives before judging use-of-force, and we won't get that intel until long after the shooting stops.
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Mongrel

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #471 on: March 21, 2011, 03:41:44 PM »

So anyway,

Quote
There is a joke circulating amongst Tripoli's men: "When Libya is liberated, our brothers in Benghazi will march to the capital with containers of women's underwear to distribute to us."

They collapse in laughter as they tell the tale and sip on their coffee.

At least one woman in Tripoli has expressed a similar view, but this was no gag, as far as I'm aware. The incident was witnessed by my relative's friend at a bank in the Souk al-Jumaa district.

An old woman, in her late 70s at least, I'm told, entered the bank to collect her 500 Libyan dollars ($410; £253) in state aid announced a couple of weeks ago.

There were two long queues - one for men and one for women. She stood in the men's queue.

The men urged her to move to the women's section. "Why?" she challenged.

A man told her: "Ya haja [a term of respect for an elderly woman] this line is for men, women is the other one".

She loudly replied: "No. All the men are in Benghazi."

The room is said to have been stunned into silence and she remained in her place until her turn came and she walked out with her money.



From an excellent BBC article this afternoon.
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Pacobird

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #472 on: March 21, 2011, 07:22:56 PM »

I am reserving judgment on the revolution until I hear some assurances for the protection of Shiite Muslims, but this country is Not Iraq.  There is a big difference between invading a stable, peaceful nation to overthrow a dictator and create a power vacuum in a diverse and tense region, and invading to assist an already-underway insurrection in a religiously and culturally homogenous area with the most educated, literate, and urbanized population in the region.

One was a disaster, and the other was how the united states were founded.





(hi5 lafayette)
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Brentai

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #473 on: March 21, 2011, 09:54:30 PM »

My favorite line of this whole thing is the repeated assertion that we're not there to take out QGuaddhaffi, we're there to "level the playing field" so the rebels have an "equal chance" with government forces.  Which sounds a lot like "We don't care who wins as long as it's as long and bloody as possible."

I know I keep saying "It's the plot of MGS4" but... well, it's the plot of MGS4.
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Classic

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #474 on: March 21, 2011, 09:57:01 PM »

I haven't played that yet Brentai. No spoilers!
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Royal☭

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #475 on: March 22, 2011, 04:43:46 AM »

Constantine, just when exactly did you become a raving ideologue.

You know Iraq was a 12 year long no-fly zone, right? And perhaps you should look up Bill Clinton's atrocities in Kosovo.

But there's other things that just Don't Sound Right. Such as our decision to implement a No-Fly zone on a guy who's been hitting the rebels with tanks and artillery. Does taking out his radar installations really help the rebels? Or does it setup a ground invasion down the line?

Really, it comes down to, do you trust the governments of Barack Obama, David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy to be about bringing liberty and democracy to the Middle East?

François

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #476 on: March 22, 2011, 06:42:06 AM »

And perhaps you should look up Bill Clinton's atrocities in Kosovo.

What about his atrocities in Rwanda?
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Mongrel

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #477 on: March 22, 2011, 02:26:10 PM »

You know Iraq was a 12 year long no-fly zone, right?

You also know that the Iraqis didn't ask for us to come (well, okay, the Kurds were always happy to see us) and that the entire fucking planet knew that Iraq was a farce based on blatant lies and a personal vendetta?

Gulf War II: This Time It's Personal.

Quote
And perhaps you should look up Bill Clinton's atrocities in Kosovo.

I did a long time ago. Thanks.

Quote
But there's other things that just Don't Sound Right. Such as our decision to implement a No-Fly zone on a guy who's been hitting the rebels with tanks and artillery. Does taking out his radar installations really help the rebels? Or does it setup a ground invasion down the line?

I understand the fact that you give no credence to the face-value statements made by western militaries, but I really don't see something wrong with "We need to shoot radar stations and anti-aircraft positions so that we can fly around with total impunity."

Quote
Really, it comes down to, do you trust the governments of Barack Obama, David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy to be about bringing liberty and democracy to the Middle East?

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
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Büge

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #478 on: March 22, 2011, 06:31:49 PM »

Gulf War II: Sins of the Father

Gulf War II: Taking Back The Turf

Gulf War II: The Legend of Curly's Gold
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Brentai

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Re: Don't you know there's a war on?
« Reply #479 on: March 22, 2011, 07:00:04 PM »

Gulf War II: Arab Bud
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