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[Thad]

This should probably get threadsplit but I'm not quite sure where to cut the end off.

(the thread is my penis)

Even Ishmael, which really isn't as thorough as it should have been for the props it got, deals with all of this

Would have maybe been more thorough if it hadn't spent so much time explaining every single overblown, didactic point THREE TIMES.

...anyway.  To play devil's advocate for a moment and salvage what I think Catloaf is saying: I think maybe he was suggesting that, if you're to take any part of religion as historical document, you're better off going with the Old Testament than, say, the Book of Mormon.  I can get behind that.

That said, yeah, just because Judaism is the progenitor of the other two Abrahamic religions doesn't mean it's the original source of the stories.  The Great Flood story appears in multiple cultures in multiple locations (which DOES kinda grant it some historical credence -- though of course when they say "the entire world" was flooded, keep in mind there were at least four continents they didn't know about yet when that shit was written).  The story of Lucifer is a lot like the story of Prometheus, except in the Jews' version the Lightbringer is the bad guy.  (Oh, and it bears noting: the Serpent is Satan?  TOTAL retcon.)  And so on.  The Jews weren't the first people to tell these stories, and in many cases weren't the first to write them down.  They were just the first to successfully stamp out matriarchy and polytheism -- and again, even that stuff is present in the earliest books of the Bible.

[Disposable Ninja]

(the thread is my penis)

Thad's hung like a thread.

Thank you and good night.

[Shinra]

Truthfully, while it wouldn't be a match made in heaven, the Muslims might better accept Israel if they'd stop the brutal killings.

This is basically my opinion on the situation. Israel have been aggressive expansionists since the nation was formed, they view their neighbors as inhuman (and have gone so far to say as much publically) and use any excuse they can get to expand their borders further. Americans have long been Israel's greatest ally, but even our patience is beginning to wear thin, and after the last major incursion by Israel into Palestine, there is almost no sympathy left - even among many jewish Americans. Live video feeds of Israeli soldiers shooting at reporters and civilians and shelling UN hospitals with white phospherous artillery did not endear them to anyone.

I think Helen Thomas was just reflecting an opinion many Americans have. We did a lot for the Jewish people following the holocaust, and have given them untold billions of dollars in federal aid over the years, defended them from their neighbors and advocated for them in the united nations, but they are refusing to get along with the people around them, refusing to even attempt peace, and now actively ignoring UN sanctions and human rights regulations under the guise of national security and manifest destiny.

I'm sure I'm going to piss somebody off for saying this, but if they're not going to even try to get along with - or ignore - their increasingly feeble neighbors and try to recognize that the people around them happen to be other nations with actual people and territory, they need to, as Helen Thomas so eloquently put it, Get the hell out of Palestine and go back to Germany and Poland.

[Büge]

You know, it's funny. As I understand it, Israel was propped up by the US as a way to get a foothold in the oil-rich middle east and to have an ally against possible reprisal. It's not too dissimilar to the way most of Europe turned a blind eye to Germany's aggression before 1939. They wanted to use Germany as a buffer against Communist Russia.

[Mongrel]

One of the subjects that came up a while back in conversation was how the consequences of Israel's assertiveness/excesses/mistakes/villainy (<- word choice depends on your point of view) is that most of the consequences are externalized. Israeli Jews are by and large protected by a massive security edifice, whereas Jews around the world face a shiny new antisemitism for the wonderful ages to come, as they take it on this chin for the actions of folks they have little to do with and no control over.

[Bal]

Catloaf's description of his beliefs seem to describe a vague sort of Deism more than anything else.

[Catloaf]

Catloaf's description of his beliefs seem to describe a vague sort of Deism more than anything else.

There are people who are just Deists and not part of some other religion?!?  How the hell does that work?  Individual definition?
Anyway, it's not like I could stop being a Jew even if I wanted to.

Judaism is basically just a crossover between a couple dozen miscellaneous desert tribal superstitions.  There's no great font of originality here, and it changes a lot over time too.  Shit, it used to be monolatrist.

Yep, and the other gods became known as demons later (like Bael).....and you're forgetting the formalization of OCD as law.  And yes, I know that all religions evolve over time.

Israel is a sacred place to everyone who believes that the God of Abraham created the universe. I personally find it abominable that any portion of these people would use violence to claim exclusive dominion over it. Jerusalem should be a beacon of unity and brotherhood for Jews, Christians and Muslims alike, not a fulcrum of hate; it represents what we have in common, and lasting peace in that area would be as fitting a monument to Hashem/the Lord/Allah as we could ever make.

Missed this earlier, but there is a good reason for no one wanting to come together.  Everyone in the area is so into their own religion that they cannot accept any aspect of the others.  Yay fundamental extremism!  Until the annihilation or liberalization (to become more liberal, not to become free) of all parties involved, no one will ever accept a shared, peaceful state of Israel.  And it's very hard to do either.

[Shinra]

Catloaf is a fucking himey? Everyone, hide your gold!

[Bal]

Catloaf's description of his beliefs seem to describe a vague sort of Deism more than anything else.

There are people who are just Deists and not part of some other religion?!?  How the hell does that work?  Individual definition?
Anyway, it's not like I could stop being a Jew even if I wanted to.

Yes, you can be a Deist without being a member of another religion. Deist beliefs are, in fact, contrary to most established religions, because they reject the idea of a personal God, a central concept in all the Big Three.

All Deism requires is that you believe there to be a creator being, but that that being is uninvolved and uninterested in the affairs of anyone, being primarily concerned with the ongoing processes of the universe. What you believe about that being beyond that is mostly up to you, but it is generally a humanist philosophy that allows for a creator.

Your assertion that you couldn't stop being a Jew even if you wanted to has more to do with culture and ethnicity than personal belief.

[TA]

Does it even have to do with culture and ethnicity?  Sounds more like he converted For Some Reason.

I'm a Jew because I believe that if there is a creator of the universe, it is a singular, genderless being who does not really care all that much about what goes on inside the universe.  And that's closest to Judaism (also, I just don't like most inherently non-kosher foods ).

[Bal]

I just assumed that he was an ethnic Jew because he insisted that he couldn't not be one. Could be wrong, but if I am then he COULD not be a Jew.

[Brentai]

Until he is observed eating lox he is both a Jew and not a Jew.

[Shinra]

Schrodinger's Jew?

[Brentai]

No, but he was pretty vocal about their persecution.

[Büge]

Schrodinger's Jew?

You're thinking of Heisenberg.

[Thad]

Schrodinger's Jew?

Robert Anton Wilson actually had a fairly clever view on the various definitions of what it takes to be a Jew (ethnic vs. religious, mother vs. father, etc.), a theme which he noted was explored in Ulysses.  His blog is old-timey and you'll have to scroll down (he spells it "Schroedinger", which is a correct spelling).

And yes, unless I'm very much mistaken, Catloaf is ethnically Jewish.  I've met his brother.

[Thad]

I'm sure I'm going to piss somebody off for saying this, but if they're not going to even try to get along with - or ignore - their increasingly feeble neighbors and try to recognize that the people around them happen to be other nations with actual people and territory, they need to, as Helen Thomas so eloquently put it, Get the hell out of Palestine and go back to Germany and Poland.

It pisses people off because it's stupid.  It's dumber than "Go back to Mexico" and only slightly less dumb than "Go back to Africa".  The Holocaust was sixty-five years ago; what percentage of the current population of Israel do you think was ever IN Germany or Poland?

I've never been to Ireland; should I go back there?

Helen Thomas is at least old enough to remember the founding of Israel.  What's your excuse?

As I said in the first place, there's a serious difference between criticizing the actions of the Israeli government and just saying stupid shit.

[Rico]

It also ignores that at some point Israel has tried most permutations of be nice or ignore people and they haven't exactly worked

[MarsDragon]

And yes, unless I'm very much mistaken, Catloaf is ethnically Jewish.  I've met his brother.

I think meeting Saturn just proves they're ethnically loud.

[Mongrel]

Wait... Saturn is Catloaf's brother?