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Author Topic: Fox Only  (Read 5661 times)

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Bal

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2010, 01:46:04 PM »

Competitive Pokemon is stupid on basically every level, starting with IVs and going all the way up to the fact that there just is, in every generation, a best team to have. It's like talent trees in WoW. No matter what you do, there is a mathematically superior build, period. Trying to be a beautiful and unique snowflake? Well guess what, you lose.
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Kayin

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2010, 02:53:31 AM »

I admit I may be mistaken here, but from what I know, that pretty much does not sound like how competitive pokemon works at all. Playing pokemon under competitive rules(and quite possibly without), there is no optimal team, as you can basically custom tailor a team to beat any team rather trivially. It's making a team that does well against the most common builds of any given day. Like magic, there is a great deal of meta game prediction. There is no perfect team or deck, it all just depends on the current environment.

Actually making a competitive team is absolutely absurd though, time wise though. That's totally true. I guess this is why most people just play over netbattle or whatever it's called. Anyways I know we have some pokemon players here who've played under competitive rules. I wanna hear their opinion.
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Bleck

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2010, 03:27:51 AM »

I played a game of LoL yesterday with someone who remarked, after being killed by a tower for the sixth time, that towers did too much damage.

This person was a higher level than me. How did this even happen?
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Doom

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2010, 06:29:08 PM »

Quote
Actually making a competitive team is absolutely absurd though, time wise though. That's totally true. I guess this is why most people just play over netbattle or whatever it's called. Anyways I know we have some pokemon players here who've played under competitive rules. I wanna hear their opinion.

The only good use of competitive rules is if you can actually agree with level-headed friends ahead of time that you'll have a tier-to-tier battle. Or you know, you'll both make a UU team or something, or both go in with OUs or BLs or Legendaries or whatever. Of course, that just means the only good thing to come out of competitive pokemon is a reference list for insuring that Arbok and Seviper users fight each other. Everything else is garbage.

The number one reason is that of course, the developers themselves are responsible for it. 4/5 of the Pokemon are worse than the optimal 1/5. Period. Utterly unsalvagable unless there is a super clever gimmick build, and even then that's just a slight blossoming of the allowable 1/5. For some reason, they took a mildly interesting concept like Wormadan(stats altered by branching evolution tree based upon the nearby debris it's picked up to cloak itself with) and sentenced it to uselessness with bad stats. Not stats with some pros and cons. Not stats that can be salvaged. Bad stats. Always bad. Never as good as other things available. Simply worse than the alternatives. Why? Is it just a joke for anybody who actually likes Wormadan?

The imbalance of useful types. There's what, 100 water types, maybe 20 of them useful at most? How many Rock/Ground, Rock/Water and Rock/Steel pokemon do we have now? Having a 4x weakness is a death sentence. Hell, the existence of evolutions is just 1/2 of the existing Pokedex spots being utter garbage, existing only to pass moves learned at esoteric points. This helps cut us down to our disgusting 1/5 useable mon number because you literally can't consider using the majority of the members of certain types. Like a lot of Plant pokemon? Oh, I guess the vast majority of them are Grass/Poison. Enjoy.

Which brings me to Poison. Yeah, some types are blatantly worse than others. Show me a type worse than Poison. I dare you. There's maybe 3 Poison Types that can be used above UU, and I'm pretty sure they all get their by using double-typing or abilities to have immunity to Psychic or Ground.

I could just go on and on but basically competitive Pokemon is about what stupid jackass is better at predicting with his Choice Banded Faggotdragon against the other guy's Choice Scarfed Assgobbler that might be swapped for a Leftovers Retardwall. And then they ban anything that might introduce even the barest glimmer of irregularity to this established practice. Like Evasion and OHKO. Is it fair that RNG can ruin my super perfect strategy(or using a Breloom to spam Spore until the enemy is forced to let me Focus Punch them) even though I actively refuse to use the counters to these mechanics that exist as the developers intended them to exist and be used in the meta-game? Yes, it is. But nobody wants to try to think of whether or not it's worth it to carry Swift on their Special Sweeper when EVERY SINGLE COMPETITIVE PLAYER can put like, Hyper Beam, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball and Lightning Bolt on their Special Sweeper. Every single one.

Maybe they could consider a Pokemon with the ability Sturdy, to entirely negate OHKOs? That might make the afore-mentioned Rock/Steels useful. But nah. Fuck the meta-game evolving. Fuck anything that could jeopardize my Toxic-Stall Blissey.

Don't even get me started on the existence of Legendary pokemon at all.

Also Kayin, I'm pretty sure most play NetBattle because they want to be able to adjust their IVs/EVs to pick out Secret Powers(it's based off secret numbers to choose the move's Type) so their move-spread can have maximum type coverage, rather than, I don't know, playing the game and making due with their own skill and pokemon they like.

If you can't tell, I have a fair amount of disdain for "I can't deal with it, ban it" style balancing, like in basically the entire Smash Brothers community since Melee was released. I have to wonder why, if Natascha Heavy is so game-changing, the meta-game didn't evolve around it? By God... their might actually be a use for Snipers. It's not like a Natascha Heavy automagically hits everybody in his field of vision. But fuck adapting, the Natascha was used properly once and by God we won't let it happen again.
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Brentai

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2010, 07:18:32 PM »

Wait, are you actually comparing all the Pokemon?  Like Pichu and shit?  I'm going to say that in a game where your little monsters are expected to have 4 class upgrades or evolutions or whatever and then there's a whole stratum of rare and super-powerful creatures then yes, you can prrrrrobably expect the unevolved dreg Pokemon to not be competitive.  Unless of course your Pikachu is supercharged by being tsundere-gay for you.
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JDigital

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2010, 08:56:32 PM »

No, even out of the fully evolved list (56% of all Pokémon), 53% of those are rated useless in competitive play. (Source: Smogon's tiers list)

Edit: I made a graph
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Kayin

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2010, 09:57:19 PM »

By God... their might actually be a use for Snipers. It's not like a Natascha Heavy automagically hits everybody in his field of vision. But fuck adapting, the Natascha was used properly once and by God we won't let it happen again.

Snipers are actually considered the best utility class. But of course on the other hand, a sniper can limit your overall offense and tanking power on a 6v6 -- it's not like theres some free sniper somewhere that they can be like "Hey, kill the heavy!"

The problem is more one of game pacing and nat seems to work too good at last point defense. Theres a googlefuck of poorly considered items in the game and so far they only banned 3. I'd rather look at that as impressive.
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Bleck

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2010, 10:26:09 PM »

A sniper can limit your overall offense and tanking power on a 6v6

But why do the pros limit it to 6v6? Maybe I'm just not well-versed in TF2 professionalism, but I'm pretty sure that most maps and weapons (and probably the entire game) are designed around 12v12. I mean, yeah, if the other team is a bunch of Soldiers and Demomen and one Heavy then a Sniper might limit your overall effectiveness, but that wouldn't really be a problem if you hadn't arbitrarily halved the number of people on each team?

also yeah pro pokemon more like go garchomp
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Kayin

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2010, 10:56:30 PM »

6v6 is an organizational thing. 8v8 leagues have been attempted but usually get few teams and are plagued by organizational issues. 6v6 is is considered "The least amount of players you can have and still have a game that feels like TF2".
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Classic

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2010, 11:01:17 PM »

So... It is because TF2ags don't have many friends?
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Saturn

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2010, 02:19:34 AM »

So... It is because TF2ags don't have many friends?

getting 8 or 9 idiots to show up for practice/matches/whatever regularly is like herding cats
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Bal

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2010, 02:23:16 AM »

I believe it also has to do with pacing. Larger teams of players at that skill level make each kill less important to the overall flow of the match, slowing the pace, but in 6v6, if you or your team make three kills, say, chances are you'll make progress.
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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2010, 03:08:26 AM »

So... It is because TF2ags don't have many friends?

getting 8 or 9 idiots to show up for practice/matches/whatever regularly is like herding cats
As a WoWnerd, vouching for this.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2010, 03:18:44 AM »

It's not hard to get twelve people to show up at once, but twelve specific people? I'm surprised team sizes are as large as they are.
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JDigital

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2010, 08:39:33 AM »

getting 8 or 9 idiots to show up for practice/matches/whatever regularly is like herding cats

I had a hard enough time getting 4 or 5 moderately intelligent people to show up for D&D.
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Doom

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2010, 04:08:41 PM »

"It's not fair that Warwick uses his Ult" on four separate occasions between two retards.
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Frocto

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2010, 03:55:10 AM »

<Xin> Dude, your ranged attack is OP

(at an annie)
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Doom

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2010, 02:04:37 PM »

An angry Twitch player just accused me of costing us a match because I wasn't carrying as Nunu. He'd throw other exciting scream hissy fits whenever he died and naturally, fed at 8/14.

I think my standards in LoL are degrading from "maybe I can win this match if I carry my incredibly terrible team" to "I hope I won't be insulted by terrible strangers when they fuck up."
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Bongo Bill

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2010, 02:07:55 PM »

So basically what I am hearing here is that DOTA-likes are just cursed as a genre.
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Smiler

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Re: Fox Only
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2010, 02:29:21 PM »

I used to joke about MOBA games making its players into spiteful beings, and then I became one.
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