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[TA]

there are certainly reasonable people who can be offended by the idea of what they're building for legitimate reasons

Name one such legitimate reason.

[Beat Bandit]

there are certainly reasonable people who can be offended by the idea of what they're building for legitimate reasons

Name one such legitimate reason.

The fact that having a mosque there is really no different than having a church there. I understand building it is saying we don't hate Muslims, but building something open to the public that anyone of any background can use would be a better reminder that everyone is allowed there, no matter what the current political and religious climate.

[TA]

As has been said, over and over and over in this very thread, it's not a mosque.  It's a community center with a prayer room.  It's not like you need to show some kind of secret Muslim decoder ring to get in.

[McDohl]

the christmas story "ovaltine"

[Classic]

I hear they have extremely esoteric genital mutilations so they know who they are. Like the Jews.

[Bal]

You could object on the grounds that it's simply in poor taste, which it is. You object not on whether they can do something, of course they can, but whether they should. Should they build a Mosque/Education Center/Whatever that close to ground zero? I don't have a problem with it, but there are a lot of people who are still very emotionally scarred by that day, and wouldn't want a constant reminder such as that within sight of the place.

Not my argument, but I wouldn't fault someone for making it

[Brentai]

Then of course there's the "If you're going to object on the grounds of poor taste don't do it in a way that's in far poorer taste" argument.

The left wing is actually usually more guilty of this than the right.

[SCD]

The fears are valid, but not sound.  The historical premise is correct, but the fact that the mosque is not.  Your attack on me is misguided, as I am only trying to display a possibility of the basic logic employed by the pastor in question, rather than the poo-poo him on the spot as an incendiary nutjob - something that the lot of you are doing. 

The bottom line is Gates did that because he cares for his soldiers and will do what is required to see them succeed in their mission in accordance with direction from the POTUS.  This is what he did, and in doing so he has been more reasonable and effective than your sensationalist and/or inaccurate MSM or the elected officials who have cried in front of the cameras - something which only emboldened the pastor.  Trust me, the reputation of the DNC is such that the more liberals like you whine and say mean names, the more hardline conservatives are emboldened.  They have all but given up on talking to you in a rational fashion.  I'm almost there myself. 

The Pastor now has an opportunity to better understand the premises of the situation.  Other people may follow their example, but others may not.  People with a conservative background and have influence are likely to respect the request of the Cabinet member due to a combination of the fine taste in political credential (in their mind), his position, and his reputation.  Yes, the phone call might give him more credibility, but it gives him the opportunity to save face in front of his congregation - something the lot of you have outright denied.

[Shinra]

I don't know what it is, I don't know if it's just selective reading on people's parts, but considering it's been mentioned six times already, I feel justified in this:

IT'S

NOT

A

MOSQUE


What do you call a YMCA?

A COMMUNITY CENTER. Not a church. Putting a YMCA in a jewish neighborhood? Not in poor taste. Nobody even pays attention to the fact that 'YMCA' stands for Young Men's Christian Association*. It's just a fucking community center. Couldn't be more innocent.

So, is this in poor taste? Only if you consider being muslim in new york in poor taste. Cut it out, guys.




* (The YMCA is a nonprofit organization whose mission is to put Christian principles into practice through programs that build healthy spirit, mind and body for all, source YMCA.net)

[Brentai]

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Oh hey thanks Shinra.  Anyway.

SCD, your insinuation seems to be that further investigation into the background of Terry Jones will reveal him to be a rational if misguided Christian pastor and not a nutty sensationalist at all.

Dpa [German Press Agency] cited church members who said Jones tried to run the Cologne church like a sect leader and applied psychological pressure on its members, subordinating all activities to his will.

"He wasn't the kind of pastor who did everything and took care of everyone," said Breuel.

Baar added: "He didn't project the biblical values and Christianity, but always made himself the center of everything."

Oh hey look he's a violent attention whore and borderline cult leader.

We are all completely blown away by this stunning revelation.

[Detonator]

there are a lot of people who are still very emotionally scarred by that day, and wouldn't want a constant reminder such as that within sight of the place.

It's not within sight of ground zero, there are several large buildings in the way.

And it's not like anyone would even realize it was associated with Muslims unless they were specifically told it was.  It's just a building, it's not gonna have 50 minarets towering into the NYC skyline.

[Bal]

I already said it wasn't my argument, but in any case do you think any of that matters to the kind of person I'm talking about? Rationally explaining to them that, oh, it's not really a Mosque, and you can't actually see it from ground zero, etc, is going to make them feel any better about the thing? They're hurt, it reminds them of their pain, that's as far as it goes.

[Shinra]

You could object on the grounds that it's simply in poor taste, which it is.

This is what you said. If that's not your argument, why did you make it?

[Bal]

That's not what he quoted. I'm not emotionally invested in 9/11 really at all. I do think the location is in bad taste, but I LIKE things that are in bad taste most of the time, and I don't disapprove of this. I'm actually in favor of building it, because letting an Islamic learning center be built near ground zero is something to be proud of, or at least the freedom that allows it to happen is something to be proud of. It's still is somewhat poor taste, but this, again, doesn't bother me.

[Detonator]

I already said it wasn't my argument, but in any case do you think any of that matters to the kind of person I'm talking about? Rationally explaining to them that, oh, it's not really a Mosque, and you can't actually see it from ground zero, etc, is going to make them feel any better about the thing? They're hurt, it reminds them of their pain, that's as far as it goes.

You say it's not your argument, but you also say it's in "bad taste".  Why?  Because other people are offended by it for objectively irrational reasons?

I don't disagree that people have very strong feelings on the issue, but if they're wrong, they're wrong.  I hate to strike up the analogy of segregation, but people had very strong feelings about that too.

I know you said you're in favor of it, but it kind of bothers me that you consider it in "poor taste".

[Bal]

It's in poor taste because it's right near a place where two big buildings full of people used to be before some Muslims flew planes into them. That's not subjective. It's in poor taste because if you could build it somewhere else, it wouldn't offend a soul (who isn't offended by everything Islam related of course). I don't know what you think poor taste means, but it's not some dire fucking imprecation, it just means there are better ways to do something than, say, that. Half the shit I say is in poor taste. Earlier in this very thread I called it the "al-Qaeda 19 Memorial Education Center", which is a joke in extremely poor taste, but I still think it's funny.

So yes, I think building it there is in poor taste, but I also think, in a broader sense, it's probably one of the better places to put it. These are not mutually exclusive ideas.

[Royal☭]

It's in poor taste because it's right near a place where two big buildings full of people used to be before some Muslims flew planes into them.

Yes, but not the Muslims who are now building the community center.  Turns out, every member of an ethnic or religious group do not know, associate or agree with each other.

[Brentai]

It's in poor taste because it's right near a place where two big buildings full of people used to be before some Muslims flew planes into them. That's not subjective.

The fact itself is not subjective but your interpretation certainly is.  It would be just as accurate to say "It's in poor taste because it's right near a place where two big buildings full of people used to be before some human beings flew planes into them." and then go on and declare that any structure in the area belonging to human beings is offensive to you.  Or non-whites, or males, or any other broad category those two guys happened to fit in.

My worry isn't so much that the building is offensive as it is the people who will choose to be offended by it.


Also what that guy just said.

[Bal]

Yes because I'm clearly stating that all Muslims are terrorists. It doesn't matter which Muslims are doing what. The act is associated in the public consciousness with Muslims and Islam, the Education Center is a reminder of that act no matter which Muslims are building it. It's asinine to claim that "oh it could have been ANYBODY who flew those planes, it doesn't matter that they were Muslims", because it does matter. It certainly mattered to them, and I would wager it matters to the Muslims building the Education Center, but for very different reasons.

I'm not sure how I ended up playing devil's advocate, or whatever this is, but it cannot have been a surprise that people were shocked, offended, or hurt (to varying degrees) when the project was announced, and if it was a surprise then that shows a profound naivete on their part.

[Royal☭]

Well, you seem to think that just because some Muslims did a bad thing, it is now in bad taste for any Muslims to do anything.

But furthermore, just because a gaggle of ignorant, bigoted fools think that it is offensive to them just for Muslims to do what they want doesn't mean that Muslims should curtail to their wishes.