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Author Topic: Black And White Indy Games  (Read 3929 times)

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James Edward Smith

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2010, 09:42:24 AM »

It's very atmospheric and goes in the opposite direction of Braid of pounding the allegory in your head and just kind of goes "Here's a thing I made and it may mean something but just figure it out yourself."

In my opinion as the master and clearly very talented game developer that I am, this is a very important point and I think all true art games will follow this concept.

Games I think, like most other art actually, can have a very strong message without trying to have any message at all. There is truth that a player can find within the complex system of mechanics and presentation of the result of those mechanics that is a game. The mathematical simulation of the game teaches the player something true and potentially profound the same way the mathematics abiding existence of the real world does.

Trying to force a single message down the player's throat rather than just creating an environment and/or situation where certain consequences are present is dangerously overbearing I think.
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Kazz

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2010, 10:39:01 AM »

Then [spoiler]The Spider[/spoiler] shows up and I was like hollllllllllllllly shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

this is why i won't play the game
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Ziiro

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2010, 11:11:38 AM »

I hit that point in the Demo, and then I just said "Fuck this", went back to dashboard, and deleted it.

I'm sure it's a great game, but I'm just not interested in a game being that dark and depressing with that sort of shit going on. It just isn't fun for me, specifically.
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Kayin

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2010, 12:08:52 PM »

Funny, its that sort of shit that makes me want to play the game.

Anyways Frocto made the point I was going to say to Det in a more colorful and silly way than I would of (saying everything expressing human ingenuity is art is, while somewhat accurate to a degree, a rather useless definition). I tend to say 'high art' around definition picky people. It sounds pretentious, but honestly high art tends to be anyways, even when it's good. Anyways Art Games. Best definition I can think of is simply "any game that places great stress on its artistic expression".  Its easy to think of an art game as shit like Passage, but Braid and Limbo aren't much different, outside of actually being good. Ironically all these games are rather shallow art, while something like SoTC is a much more sophisticated example of artistic expression.

Now, I'm going to go down on this art tangent because I feel like, over time, I've come to really understand the issue. This sort of conflicts with what I said above, but who cares. We all know what people mean by 'art game', but heres something I think is a fuller description of 'games as art'. First of all, the whole 'are games art' or not argument is obviously silly, but I don't think people get what (significant) art in that context actually is. It is any media that is popular enough and expressive enough for people to really really get into it. If the public perception says something is art, it is art. Like, seriously thats it. Every major form of media, every genre of music and panting that people have claimed will be insignificant despite popular approval has become art. Like, seriously thats it.

So then the next thing is 'what makes something artistic in one genre is not necessarily what makes things artistic in another genre'. People ask 'what is the Citizen Kane of Video Games?" ... What is the Citizen Kane of music? Fuck if I know. Or art. Or anything. It is what ever is sophisticated and good -- and not necessarily sophisticated in the way you think. Braid dresses it's self up like art. It goes "I have soft classical music and painterly art! of course I'm art!", no Braid, you're not art. Well, maybe you are, but not for that reason. I'm going to quote something Patito said in person a few months back as one of the most secretly insightful things I've ever heard on the subject.

"La-Mulana is art... but Braid isn't"

La-Mulana is almost the Watchmen of Videogames. Not so much so because Videogames never fell into the ghetto the same way Comics did and also that La-Mulana doesn't stand as a pinnacle of gaming, but it is a solid game that is about games and the media. It represents a level of sophistication in presentation and gameplay. It is an artful homage, without being like I Wanna Be the Guy and just stealing shit. The whole retro movement is not so different from many art movements. So what else is art? Fucking Super Metroid. High art is the greatest works in a genre. People are looking at games to be art in the same way movies are -- story telling and narrative, and while it can do that, it can do it through general game design and goodness, much like how music seems to go. Art through excellence. So Braid might still be art by being really damned good, it's trappings of classical art are merely shallow. Stuff like SoTC mix game design in with the narrative to hopefully craft a compelling experience in ways a movie can't. That's cool as hell too, and I think we'll eventually see more things in that direction, but again, thats not the only way to be art. We have significant art in Eraserhead, Citizen Kane and Pulp Fiction and none of them are good for nearly the same reasons.
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Kazz

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2010, 12:27:21 PM »

I always thought it was stupid to deny that videogames are art just because they have an interactive element.

Following that train of thought, is the game of Chess art?  Sure.  It is.  I said so.
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Kayin

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2010, 01:37:44 PM »

Well, Chess isn't art because no one really cares if it's art. Also it has no real creator and was just sorta gradually made over time by new rules here and there. I think boardgames lack the.... granularity of videogames, so there was never a movement to make boardgames into 'art'. You don't play a boardgame and get a sense of exploration, adventure, awe or whatever. If you do, it's a DnD campaign (which I guess could be art too!). Then you have stuff like Train ( http://www.destructoid.com/gdc-10-the-holocaust-board-game-166862.phtml ), which is kinda new and novel, but probably too arty. People would probably say that is art (I mean, it's more art than a game really), but if there was more stuff like it and it got into the public eye more and suddenly people started to respect boardgames as art, chess (besides for the issue of authorship) or various euro games would definitely be considered 'art', retroactively.

It's kinda weird how it works. You need to be expressional as a media to be considered art, but once your considered art you can make something thats high art that isn't expressional. I think society just needs an initial bait or something. But yeah, interactiveness has nothing to do with it, even though people think it does.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2010, 01:45:52 PM »

Chess itself is not art, but a nice chessboard certainly is.
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...but is it art?

Kazz

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2010, 01:51:59 PM »

Chess is an invention with no true purpose but to stimulate strategic interaction between two individuals.  If it's not art, it's something better than art.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2010, 02:14:21 PM »

Chess is art the way a language is art. You could make the claim that Esperanto is art, but I doubt you'd get far saying the same thing of Swedish.
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...but is it art?

Classic

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2010, 02:54:32 PM »

I think it takes more than simply being artificial to be art. I think it might take intent to evoke or convey some sort of emotion?

English is art waiting to happen, like a canvass and charcoal.
Me calling BB a tasteless, idiot hack is art.
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Detonator

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2010, 03:17:52 PM »

Okay, I'll admit that there's a general definition of "art game", but as TA pointed out, it usually carries a negative connotation of "style over substance" that I would hate to associate brilliant games like Ico with.  In addition, the definition seems to have as much to do with the creator's intent as the content of the game itself.  I suppose that's true of any kind of art.

I'm not holding this against art games.  In another thread I was defending art games as another expression of the medium.  I think it's okay to make a "style over substance" game as long as it provides a satisfying experience.  What that means, of course, is up to the player.
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Brentai

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2010, 05:17:13 PM »

Reiterating what at least three people have said, art games are games in which artistic concerns are the main focus.  This does not necessarily imply bad gameplay.

ICO, Shadow of the Colossus, Indigo Prophecy, Heavy Rain, Killer 7, OotW and its brethren, Rez, and later Final Fantasies all fall into this, as well as an endless stream of indie games.  This is not a comprehensive list.  You can rate all their overall qualities independently.

That said, it enrages me when a facade of artistic expression is used to cover up technical inadequacies, which is often.  See: the title of this topic.
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Frocto

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2010, 06:21:57 PM »

If I was mad, it was because I broke my personal policy of never discussing art games in a context where I have no control over the minimum intelligence/trolling ability of the people I'm talking to and instantly regretted it. Ho ho ho
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Detonator

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2010, 06:27:35 PM »

I'm glad it's not my fault, then.
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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2010, 08:47:24 PM »

I- I thought we had brought the hookah out! I had brought my finest hookah tobacco! (He has none)


That said, it enrages me when a facade of artistic expression is used to cover up technical inadequacies, which is often.
There are times when this is glaringly obvious, but I do my best (maybe too much) to give these guys the benefit of the doubt.

Except for Blow. I hate that guy.
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Kazz

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2010, 11:41:35 PM »

an art game doesn't have anything left when you take that away.

for some reason i had this sudden vision of Cactus disappearing forever
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Kayin

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2010, 11:09:24 AM »

I honestly can't even say Cactus even has art going for him. If it wasn't for his following, I'd say he was just a really bad game designer. Now, popularity doesn't make what he does good necessarily, but he at least knows how to hit some kind of chord somewhere. It's not a chord I have though.
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Brentai

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2010, 11:34:40 AM »

I think he just serves as an isnpiration to those who want to churn things out unpolished and still be taken seriously for it.
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Catloaf

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2010, 12:12:49 PM »

An art game is a game that values being "art" more than it values being a game.  The result is generally a shitty mess that tries to have a point and fails, like Passage. ... and an art game doesn't have anything left when you take that away.

No no no.  What you're describing is not an "art game" but a piece of  "computer-based interactive art."  A videogame is not a videogame if it has no goal.  Any kind of game is not a game if it has not goal.  A 'game' (in the physical world or on a computer) that has no goal in any way shape or form is either a toy, or an art piece.  Under this definition, sim city and noby noby boy are not videogames but videogame-like toys, which is fine, it's just that they aren't games.  Think of it in physical terms, legos are a toy, not a game.  But if you add some sort of competition or goal, like build a(n) _______ in ____minutes and whoever does it better wins, the action taking place is a game.

So an "art game" is a game which also happens to be a work of art.  Braid is an art game, it's just that it's a very bad and pretentious one.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: Black And White Indy Games
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2010, 07:47:28 PM »

I take issue with that. Time puzzles are great.
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...but is it art?
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