Topic: 2012: The Mayans Warned Us Of Stupid Elections (Read 88514 times)

Thad · « **Reply #880 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:45:23 PM »

I s'pose that's fair. It's nice to see Reid at least going on the offensive and knowing what target he should be hitting. And I suppose I can blame his clumsiness on a lack of practice.

Doom · « **Reply #881 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:50:01 PM »

The Reid thing is classic Republican Noise Machine... turned on the GOP. An entire week of the Election Narrative being "What is Romney hiding/Harry Reid is a dickbag" is much better for Obama than "You didn't build That Economy that sucks, Obummer" or God Forbid, Gun Control or something. You can call Harry Reid an asshole all you want. The real issue is that Romney was dumb enough to respond. And with a double-edged line like "Put up or shut up" of all things. I'm not gonna shed any tears for the party of Purple Heart Bandages getting their ass burned by their own tricks.

Mongrel brings up an unintended point that should be chewed upon. What if Mitt Romney's tax returns are clear?

Well, then he should release them. He was being sassed about them since the Primary. But Romney probably has something ugly in there. Not "didn't pay taxes for 10 years" ugly, though I wouldn't be upset if we were pleasantly surprised. There's a possibility that he has underpaid on taxes, used ridiculous loop-holes(you know that Horse? $78k tax write-off in the one year he did release) or enjoyed that amnesty on Swiss Bank accounts or something.

Basically, whatever is in those returns is worse than the sum total of the damage Romney will take for releasing them. Romney has decided it would hurt him less to be hammered on this issue for the next 100 days then to actually release the returns. Either dude has some weird standards and has taken a dumb stand or whatever is in those taxes is messy. Or he's a 12 Dimensional Chess Master and is actively betting on a timely release of the Tax Returns(October) completely obliterating the voting bloc's memories and letting him ride in on a land-slide win. In which case hol-eeeeee shit. But nothing we've seen from Romney yet really points to that... it's more likely that he really does think he's just too important to do things commoners do!

Thad · « **Reply #882 on:** August 07, 2012, 02:02:04 PM »

Quote from: Doom on August 07, 2012, 01:50:01 PM

The Reid thing is classic Republican Noise Machine... turned on the GOP. An entire week of the Election Narrative being "What is Romney hiding/Harry Reid is a dickbag" is much better for Obama than "You didn't build That Economy that sucks, Obummer" or God Forbid, Gun Control or something. You can call Harry Reid an asshole all you want.

Yeah, that's a fair point. Like I said, nobody's going to remember this story come next week; it's not like the fake National Guard docs managing to somehow completely derail the actually-totally-legitimate debate about Bush's military service. The story is that Romney is rich and doesn't pay much in taxes; everything else is noise.

Quote from: Doom on August 07, 2012, 01:50:01 PM

Well, then he should release them. He was being sassed about them since the Primary. But Romney probably has something ugly in there. Not "didn't pay taxes for 10 years" ugly, though I wouldn't be upset if we were pleasantly surprised. There's a possibility that he has underpaid on taxes, used ridiculous loop-holes(you know that Horse? $78k tax write-off in the one year he did release) or enjoyed that amnesty on Swiss Bank accounts or something.

Basically, whatever is in those returns is worse than the sum total of the damage Romney will take for releasing them. Romney has decided it would hurt him less to be hammered on this issue for the next 100 days then to actually release the returns. Either dude has some weird standards and has taken a dumb stand or whatever is in those taxes is messy.

Well, again, I think "messy" tends to overstate things; I think absolutely everybody above a certain income level has stuff in their taxes that can be picked apart and played up as some kind of Huge Deal. Reid included, as I noted. Rampant speculation over "What's in there?" is better than weeks of the media reporting on pretty much any old damn even-mildly-dubious thing that actually IS in there.

But I think you're on the money with "ridiculous loopholes". I'm even sympathetic to Romney's argument that he's just doing what anybody would do in his situation and he'd be a chump to pay more in taxes than he absolutely has to. I think Romney's a prick, but I think it's the enablers in the government who actually wrote the laws that REWARD people for being pricks who are the real villains in the tax story. Regardless of party affiliation.

But yeah $78K writeoff for a horse is pretty fucking galling.

Brentai · « **Reply #883 on:** August 07, 2012, 03:10:40 PM »

See those two points are EXACTLY why Romney is less acceptable than practically anybody.

He believes, in perfect honesty, that it is stupid to not take advantage of the way the rules work. He's kind of like the Sirlin of money*.

He is campaigning to be the person in charge of the rules.

What's to stop him from being rampantly, brazenly, and ceaselessly self-serving as long as it was legal and he could get away with it? His personal ethics work in such a way that he would feel dishonest if he didn't.

"Fox guarding the henhouse" is kind of how I feel about it, but the metaphor isn't quite right. The fox doesn't feel morally compelled to eat all the hens. McCarthy guarding the... Russian sub?

* This is not meant as an insult to Sirlin.

Thad · « **Reply #884 on:** August 07, 2012, 03:47:20 PM »

Yeah, and it's been interesting watching the sides try to frame the debate.

"We need someone with business experience to fix the economy" sounds like common sense.

But phrase it as "Should the government be run like a business?" and you'll get a lot more uncertainty in your answers.

Phrase it as "Should the government be run like Bain Capital?" and the "no" votes start to take over.

And Romney's effectively in a corner right now. If he talks about his government experience or his religion, he puts off his base; if he talks about his business experience, he puts off moderates. What's left, his role in the Olympics? Whoops, fucked that one up too.

So he's increasingly in the position of having to try to define himself while saying absolutely fucking nothing.

Which is kinda what every politician has to do, on some level, but Romney is really, spectacularly bad at it.

It's kinda like Gore trying to run a campaign without mentioning Bill Clinton or the environment.

Brentai · « **Reply #885 on:** August 07, 2012, 04:00:07 PM »

But... that was a mistake.

Thad · « **Reply #886 on:** August 07, 2012, 04:04:59 PM »

I'm not convinced that this isn't.

I think that Romney running screaming away from his record is probably doing more harm than embracing it (though I realize I kinda just got through making the opposite argument in regard to his taxes). The problem is that now, in addition to seeming spectacularly inauthentic, he's shying away from what he actually HAS accomplished, both good and bad.

On the other hand, I'm not convinced that any of that matters. Because he IS spectacularly inauthentic, and that's what's hurting him more than anything.

That was Bush's strength, really -- he was just as much a child of privilege as Romney is, and a much worse fuckup as both a businessman and politician. But he managed to convince people he was a regular guy.

Clinton, Obama, Reagan, all good at that. Dole was pretty good too but he was up against the master. Gore, Kerry, Romney -- not so good at the whole "connecting with people" thing. Though I think they all did a better job at it when they WEREN'T hamstringing themselves by trying to conceal their actual opinions on things as deeply as possible.

I mean, okay, here's an example: his response to the fucking horse story. Everybody knows about the damn horse; people are making fun of him for it and using it as a demonstration of how out-of-touch and rich he is.

So what's his solution?

That fucking bullshit about "Well, that's Ann's thing; I don't even know what day the event is and I won't be watching it."

Well, Mitt, that doesn't make you come across as less of a rich asshole; it makes you come across as a rich asshole who buys his wife expensive toys and then waves her off and trivializes the things she's interested in.

He'd have been better off just saying what Shinra said: "I'm so proud to be representing my country in the Olympics; what could be more American than that?"

I think that's the thing: whatever the issue, he refuses to own it. He runs the hell away from something as trivial as horse-dancing.

And I think people respect candidates who show backbone and conviction, and that in a lot of cases precisely what that conviction IS is secondary.

Büge · « **Reply #887 on:** August 07, 2012, 04:14:52 PM »

Quote from: Thad on August 07, 2012, 03:47:20 PM

Yeah, and it's been interesting watching the sides try to frame the debate.

"We need someone with business experience to fix the economy" sounds like common sense.

But phrase it as "Should the government be run like a business?" and you'll get a lot more uncertainty in your answers.

Phrase it as "Should the government be run like Bain Capital?" and the "no" votes start to take over.

Vote For Duke

Thad · « **Reply #888 on:** August 07, 2012, 04:19:27 PM »

Be honest: every single one of you would rather vote for that guy than Romney.

Mongrel · « **Reply #889 on:** August 07, 2012, 04:41:35 PM »

Quote from: Thad on August 07, 2012, 04:04:59 PM

And I think people respect candidates who show backbone and conviction, and that in a lot of cases precisely what that conviction IS is secondary.

If it got my Mayor elected, it'll get ANYBODY elected.

[Laughtrack]

Brentai · « **Reply #890 on:** August 07, 2012, 04:45:55 PM »

Quote from: Thad on August 07, 2012, 04:04:59 PM

That fucking bullshit about "Well, that's Ann's thing; I don't even know what day the event is and I won't be watching it."

Yeah I'm not sure what genius thought "Oh I don't even care about it, tra la la!" would make him look like less of a high-fallutin' prince.

Well, that's not true. I'm pretty sure it was Mitt Romney who thought that.

Shinra · « **Reply #891 on:** August 07, 2012, 06:15:01 PM »

It's funny, but basically every Gore joke works for Romney. Just replace "I invented the internet" with "I think Corporations are people".

Royal☭ · « **Reply #892 on:** August 07, 2012, 06:39:46 PM »

The difference, of course, is that Mitt Romney actually claimed corporations are people.

Thad · « **Reply #893 on:** August 07, 2012, 08:54:02 PM »

I still maintain that he meant "Corporations are MADE UP OF people and if you're cutting taxes for corporations you're benefitting the people who work there."

But given that the subject of corporate personhood is actually a pretty serious legal issue right now, it made for an eyebrow-raising choice of words.

(I'd say it's more akin to "I voted for it before I voted against it" than "I invented the Internet" -- in that it's something the candidate actually said and it was a dumb damn thing to say, but that there's actually a reasonable explanation for it.)

Brentai · « **Reply #894 on:** August 07, 2012, 10:29:13 PM »

A reasonable assumption, and I'd buy it for anyone else.

François · « **Reply #895 on:** August 07, 2012, 11:14:29 PM »

That's so romnist, Brentai.

TA · « **Reply #896 on:** August 10, 2012, 09:10:32 PM »

So ... Paul Ryan.

McDohl · « **Reply #897 on:** August 10, 2012, 09:28:55 PM »

...aaaaaand cue a jillion ads in Florida and Virginia from the Obama camp about Paul Ryan's plan to voucherize Medicare and gut Medicaid.

Shinra · « **Reply #898 on:** August 11, 2012, 03:43:37 AM »

Quote from: TA on August 10, 2012, 09:10:32 PM

So ... Paul Ryan.

And now it's officially official.

Let the smearing begin!

Smiler · « **Reply #899 on:** August 11, 2012, 07:33:49 AM »

Quote

To protect the world from Education
TO Unite all job creators within our nation

To denounce the evils of Big Gov
To pretend our speech comes from God above.

Romney!
Ryan!

Team 1%! Blast the country straight to the Right!
Surrender Now or prepare to fight!

Rush! That's right!

News:

Author Topic: 2012: The Mayans Warned Us Of Stupid Elections (Read 88514 times)