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[Mongrel]

This could go in 2012, Culture Wars or any number of a half-dozen threads, but anyway, never mind.

Gerald Caplan is usually a sort of thoughful left-wing hack, but I thought this editorial was pretty good! Granted, all he had to do is state the obvious, but people who will do that don't seem to be so common these days.

What's really worth sharing is the (probably) Rove quote:

I first got a sense of how the program worked back in 2004 in a riveting New York Times Magazine article by writer Ron Suskind. Mr. Suskind was reporting a conversation he’d had with an aide to George Bush (probably the president’s diabolical Rasputin, Karl Rove), and presented the following mind-bending revelation:

The aide said that guys like me were “in what we call the reality-based community,” which he defined as people who “believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality. That’s not the way the world really works anymore,” he continued. “We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality – judiciously, as you will – we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors … and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”

[Brentai]

The simple truth is that the majority of the people down there, probably the supermajority, are very happy to be brainwashed and not really worth saving.

Doesn't mean you stop trying to improve the world though.  You do it for its own sake and not for them.


TANGENT: I have to take exception to this quote from the article though:

Mitt Romney [...] adheres to a religion that makes Scientology look sensible

I have my serious issues with the LDS but the truth is that their own flavor of psychotic cult mentality isn't too different from the one practiced by Southern Baptists and... well, every major religion since the Phoenicians, really.  It only feels more shocking because it tends to come out suddenly and fiercely from people who up to that point seemed fairly sensible, tolerant and even a bit altruistic.  This is COMPLETELY BY DESIGN but it's still not that different than the frothing fundamentalist on 88.9 FM, it just tends to come around and clock you in the back of the head instead of being obvious after about 10 seconds of listening to the person.

Scientologists, by contrast, are literally on drugs, and will actually murder anyone who tries to get out.

[Caithness]

Aww, thanks Brentai. I was about to defend my religion, and you beat me to it. That warms my heart.

[Brentai]

If you call that a defense instead of an extremely backhanded compliment, you're welcome.

[NexAdruin]

This could go in 2012, Culture Wars or any number of a half-dozen threads, but anyway, never mind.

Gerald Caplan is usually a sort of thoughful left-wing hack, but I thought this editorial was pretty good! Granted, all he had to do is state the obvious, but people who will do that don't seem to be so common these days.

What's really worth sharing is the (probably) Rove quote:

I first got a sense of how the program worked back in 2004 in a riveting New York Times Magazine article by writer Ron Suskind. Mr. Suskind was reporting a conversation he’d had with an aide to George Bush (probably the president’s diabolical Rasputin, Karl Rove), and presented the following mind-bending revelation:

The aide said that guys like me were “in what we call the reality-based community,” which he defined as people who “believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality. That’s not the way the world really works anymore,” he continued. “We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality – judiciously, as you will – we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors … and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”

That's something straight out of 1984, which is hilarious because every conservative I know misunderstands that novel as a speech against socialism (which they also misunderstand as being identical to communism).

[Büge]

Isn't one of the symptoms of Schizophrenia a detachment from reality?

[Mongrel]

It's even funnier/worse because if you twist your head a bit, you can almost see the worldview as maybe-Rove does. And then you (hopefully) give your head a shake and escape before it's too late.

[Thad]

Yeah, the "reality-based community" thing has been making the rounds since at least '04.  Shouldn't exactly be a surprise; it's magical-thinking "Never tell me the odds!" stuff that's been at the heart of the neocons' strategizing from day one.

I'd say most of them buy into it because they literally believe that God is on their side; given Rove's disdain for the religious base I suspect his thinking is a more-secular "History is moved by great men" kind of thinking.

Mitt Romney [...] adheres to a religion that makes Scientology look sensible

I have my serious issues with the LDS but the truth is that their own flavor of psychotic cult mentality isn't too different from the one practiced by Southern Baptists and... well, every major religion since the Phoenicians, really.  It only feels more shocking because it tends to come out suddenly and fiercely from people who up to that point seemed fairly sensible, tolerant and even a bit altruistic.  This is COMPLETELY BY DESIGN but it's still not that different than the frothing fundamentalist on 88.9 FM, it just tends to come around and clock you in the back of the head instead of being obvious after about 10 seconds of listening to the person.

Scientologists, by contrast, are literally on drugs, and will actually murder anyone who tries to get out.

Indeed.  Tangentially, I find them fascinating as two points on the same curve from religion moving from the supernatural to the science fictional as our understanding of science has improved over the centuries.  From a strictly doctrinary point-of-view you could argue that "Jesus lives in America and God has his own planet" are as wacky as "Xenu dropped H-bombs in volcanoes", but as Colbert once put it, "Now if they threw in a burning bush or a virgin birth, THAT would make sense."

But leaving aside doctrine and focusing on actual behavior, well, there's plenty of troubling stuff coming out of LDS -- rabidly anti-gay, with the spectre of institutionalized racism hanging over it -- but, well, is there a major religion in America that that DOESN'T apply to?  Scientology, OTOH, has a more overt history of brainwashing (and let's please avoid the "all religion is brainwashing" argument; I'm talking about actual sleep and food deprivation and the like), and is particularly aggressive against its critics.  And as you say, there are some pretty horrifying cases of sick people trying to leave the church so they could get medical care, being refused, and dying.

All of which is rather off-topic.  When it comes right down to it I think the evangelical resistance to Mormonism is a big part of why Romney keeps facing the challenger-du-jour, but once (if?) he gets the nom the base will fall in line behind him, just like it did for McCain.

It's even funnier/worse because if you twist your head a bit, you can almost see the worldview as maybe-Rove does. And then you (hopefully) give your head a shake and escape before it's too late.

And that in and of itself bears a 1984 comparison.  The single most terrifying thing about 1984 is that everything O'Brien says is true -- from a certain perspective.

[Brentai]

You talk as if Rove is actually wrong.  I've already given one good example of how easy it is to narrative-build a tragic hero out of a comic book - no, a Charles Dickens novel villain.  It is true that the spin machine isn't the unassailable nuclear option that the neocons like to believe it is - the early Clinton era owes its existence to the GOP thinking it could get away with doublespeaking about a middle-class tax increase - but it has been a very effective cornerstone of their WEALTH KOMPRESSION strategy since 1980.

1984

The more I reflect on it, the more certain I am that this book has a special place on Karl Rove's bookshelf, right next to The Prince.

[Mothra]

Amen.

[Thad]

You talk as if Rove is actually wrong.  I've already given one good example of how easy it is to narrative-build a tragic hero out of a comic book - no, a Charles Dickens novel villain.

But it's temporary.  Sooner or later reality catches up.  Popular opinion turned against the war, and against Bush -- and Rove was standing there smugly talking about how he was entitled to "THE math" right up until his party lost the election and he got fired.

[Brentai]

One reason to vote for Newt Gingrich?  He's pretty much the conservative equivalent of Obama, or more accurately the Republican equivalent of Lieberman.  Which is to say, the man has zero trouble throwing the people most loyal to him under the bus for political expediency.

Giving a flying "fuck you" to an entire state of party loyalists because he can't be assed to give them a single thousand dollars of his campaign budget to be represented?  Yep.

Firing one of the first shots on that whole "War on Christmas" conservatives are up in arms about, back when it was the in thing to do?  Yes sir.

Paying lip service to big oil while taking handouts under the table from big oil's biggest competition?  Pony up!

Divorcing your cancer-stricken wife because she's bad for your public image?  ...okay I think that's a little too spot-on the definition of "throwing people loyal to you under the bus for political expediency" for comfort.

Regardless, the man clearly has zero real interest in anything other than what seems to benefit him at that specific moment in time.  He's kind of blind and stupid in regards to the long-term consequences of his actions.  He would turn around and bite even his own financial backers if given the proper motivation - say, a growing and vocal movement against said financial backers.  His own horrific moral void makes him very easy to manipulate.

In contrast to Barack Obama, who's been nothing more than a knife for the DNC to fall on, Newt Gingrich is a double-edged sword.  And despite his stated party affiliation, the GOP really doesn't have the sense of cohesion right now to get a proper handle on it.  Neither does the DNC, thank God.  We?  We're getting there.

[Büge]

You talk as if Rove is actually wrong.  I've already given one good example of how easy it is to narrative-build a tragic hero out of a comic book - no, a Charles Dickens novel villain.

But it's temporary.  Sooner or later reality catches up.  Popular opinion turned against the war, and against Bush -- and Rove was standing there smugly talking about how he was entitled to "THE math" right up until his party lost the election and he got fired.

Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends.

[Brentai]

Rambo Nothing Is Over

[Mongrel]

You talk as if Rove is actually wrong.  I've already given one good example of how easy it is to narrative-build a tragic hero out of a comic book - no, a Charles Dickens novel villain.

But it's temporary.  Sooner or later reality catches up.  Popular opinion turned against the war, and against Bush -- and Rove was standing there smugly talking about how he was entitled to "THE math" right up until his party lost the election and he got fired.

One of my life's fondest memories (a small one perhaps, but one that'll keep for many, many years), was Rove as a commentator on Fox on the night of the 2008 election.

At one point, Rove's explaining the Electoral math, which wasn't looking good for McCain but wasn't quite a confirmed loss yet. He pointed to Ohio (still undecided), saying that if McCain takes Ohio then he still has a legtimate chance at the presidency. The exact SECOND he completed that sentence, Ohio turned blue.

Oh, the look on his face at that moment will keep me warm at night for a long time indeed

[A²]

You can't share something like that and not give us video.

[Mongrel]

I would have, if I could have found it.

[François]

I'd say most of them buy into it because they literally believe that God is on their side; given Rove's disdain for the religious base I suspect his thinking is a more-secular "History is moved by great men" kind of thinking.

God help you, you had Rodion Romanovitch Raskolnikov in the White House.

[Mongrel]

I'd say most of them buy into it because they literally believe that God is on their side; given Rove's disdain for the religious base I suspect his thinking is a more-secular "History is moved by great men" kind of thinking.

God help you, you had Rodion Romanovitch Raskolnikov in the White House.

I would not ennoble Rove with such a comparison.

[Thad]

Newt's former communications aide feels really bad about quitting now that Newt is up in the polls.