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[Doom]

It's feasible to have those responsible tried in Libyan courts or perhaps even extradited to American ones. Justice would be done then. Obama's got a spotty war record for sure but he very handily cleared the low-set hurdle of "Be Presidential After A Thing Happened."

[Shinra]

Obama's foreign policy record is honestly awesome. He got us involved in the Libyan conflict without having to occupy or spend substantial amounts of money, he's given the impression of being 'tough on terror' at every point in his presidency and as Brentai pointed out it was his administration that got Osama. Foreign policy is the last thing that Romney should be attacking him on, IMO. Romney's biggest strength is his business record and the economy is where Americans seem to perceive Obama's greatest weakness. If I were Romney, I would have made a statement of support for the families of the dead and went right back to hitting Obama on the economy tomorrow morning.

[Mongrel]

It's also worth noting that the population centres in Libya are Tripoli and the west and they are much more liberal than Benghazi and that the Libyan transitional government just elected a legislature that is two-thirds for a party that is liberal and more or less secular. They are RIGHT NOW in the proceess of electing a president-elect (widely expected to be a well-repected former rebel leader and current liberal).

Basically this is the shit disturbers who are unhappy that they don't have the weight in votes to force an islamist state so they're shit-disturbing. Coming down hard on the Libyan government or otherwise blundering in would be the worst possible response. Hillary's response really was the best.

[Thad]

Haven't been following it; all I heard was a snippet on the radio on my way to work and they were mostly looking at Clinton's speech too.  I'll do a bit more research before I comment.

Re: Mormons: Well, I live in Phoenix metro; I know a lot of them.  My experience with most of them is akin to my experience with most fundamentalists: wonderful, nice people who just happen to have some really nasty, prejudicial, reactionary views on large swaths of the population.

I've mentioned before that my fiancee was raised Mormon and that she and her family left the church because of its bigoted views toward blacks and gays.

And of course there are plenty of wonderful, open-minded Mormons out there as well.  I remember a few years back we were talking about Cam Clarke and someone found an interview where he discussed coming out to his family and how supportive they all were.  Mike Allred's always struck me as a thoughtful, compassionate guy.  And that lady on The Daily Show the other week (wrote a book called Mormon Girl?  Something like that.) seemed really cool too.

I don't think Mormonism's fundamentally different from most other faiths.  It's newer so it gets more scrutiny, and there are details people pick out as weird where they ignore bits of more familiar faiths that are probably just as weird.

On the whole I think the church has been really reactionary in its treatment of minorities in the past and its current political stance against gay marriage is not only unconscionable but a violation of its own stated principles.  And I've met a few Mormons who were downright weird.  But I think you can find any church and start picking out things you don't like about its leadership or individual members, especially among churches who are vocal in politics.

But before I make it sound like all their political views are reactionary, I should add that the church leadership has been a positive force in the immigration debate, recently.  Now, the Mormon Church is not a homogeneous entity, and there are plenty of anti-immigrant bigots in it (probably most notably SB1070 sponsor Russell Pearce) but the church leadership has been clear that it believes immigrants should be treated with dignity, as our friends and neighbors and fellow-travelers.  And I really do have a lot of respect for that.

[Ted Belmont]

Doubling down didn't work? Why not try tripling down?

[Thad]

More from ABC News:

Obama defended the messages sent out by U.S. diplomats in Cairo, who early Tuesday released a statement criticizing an American-made film that depicts the Prophet Muhammed, Islam's founder, in a derogatory way. The film touched off the protest at the Cairo embassy and may have played a role in the lethal Benghazi attack. It also prompted Romney's criticism.

"It came from people on the ground, who are potentially in danger," Obama said. "You know, my tendency is to cut folks a little bit of slack when they're in that circumstance, rather than try to question their judgment from the comfort of a campaign office."

The president added, "I think that if you look at how most Republicans have reacted, most elected officials, they've reacted responsibly, waiting to find out the facts before they talked...making sure that our number one priority is the safety and security of American personnel."

Nice -- he expresses his sympathy for the release sent out from the embassy without actually agreeing with it, and then goes for the bipartisan hat trick.

Which is easy to do, what with stuff like this:

Richard Armitage, the former deputy secretary of state under Republican President George W. Bush said Romney "will find out that first reports from the battlefield are always incorrect…This should be his mantra, so he can speak in a deliberate manner, and not have to repent at his leisure later."

[Brentai]

I'd be happier if he didn't respond at all, focusing on the actual issue at hand and treating his supposed challenger as a basic non-entity.  That should be how Romney gets treated for the next few months: as nobody relevant.

As far as the denouncements go, well, if you think it's inappropriate to ask your people to try and make peace with and understand the same people who are trying to murder you, you clearly don't have a lot of respect for Jesus.

[Royal☭]

"Harold, it's Romney, Mitt Romney. You're my lawyer so I think you should know: I've killed a lot of people. Some girls in the apartment uptown uh, some homeless people maybe 5 or 10 um an NYU girl I met in Central Park. I left her in a parking lot behind some donut shop. I killed Bethany, my old girlfriend, with a nail gun, and some man uh some old faggot with a dog last week. I killed another girl with a chainsaw, I had to, she almost got away and uh someone else there I can't remember maybe a model, but she's dead too. And Paul Allen. I killed Paul Allen with an axe in the face, his body is dissolving in a bathtub in Hell's Kitchen. I don't want to leave anything out here. I guess I've killed maybe 20 people, maybe 40. I have tapes of a lot of it, uh some of the girls have seen the tapes. I even, um... I ate some of their brains, and I tried to cook a little. Tonight I, uh, I just had to kill a LOT of people. And I'm not sure I'm gonna get away with it this time. I guess I'll uh, I mean, ah, I guess I'm a pretty uh, I mean I guess I'm a pretty sick guy."

Original text of Romney's remarks.

[Shinra]

"Harold, it's Romney, Mitt Romney. You're my lawyer so I think you should know: I've killed a lot of people. Some girls in the apartment uptown uh, some homeless people maybe 5 or 10 um an NYU girl I met in Central Park. I left her in a parking lot behind some donut shop. I killed Bethany, my old girlfriend, with a nail gun, and some man uh some old faggot with a dog last week. I killed another girl with a chainsaw, I had to, she almost got away and uh someone else there I can't remember maybe a model, but she's dead too. And Paul Allen. I killed Paul Allen with an axe in the face, his body is dissolving in a bathtub in Hell's Kitchen. I don't want to leave anything out here. I guess I've killed maybe 20 people, maybe 40. I have tapes of a lot of it, uh some of the girls have seen the tapes. I even, um... I ate some of their brains, and I tried to cook a little. Tonight I, uh, I just had to kill a LOT of people. And I'm not sure I'm gonna get away with it this time. I guess I'll uh, I mean, ah, I guess I'm a pretty uh, I mean I guess I'm a pretty sick guy."

Original text of Romney's remarks.

Man, I don't think Romney could ever have that much self reflection. Especially that last part.

[François]

He'd probably blame Bethany on Obama.

[Shinra]

He'd probably blame Bethany on Obama.

If Obama hadn't been weak on foreign policy, maybe Bethany would still be with us.

[Friday]

Romney couldn't have killed Paul. I saw him in Japan at the time of death.

[TA]

Looks like Ron Paul might be relevant after all~

[Brentai]

Oh good, let's change the narrative to "I lost because of electoral shenanigans" instead of "I lost because I could barely conceal my erection while talking about four people who got murdered."

[Mongrel]

That tie scenario. Oh my word.

Or even just the electoral college fucking with things even if it is to no effect. Why not? After all just about every other little tradition that's not enshrined in law but which actually allows the country to function is being broken. Why not the college?

Like a man who's been placed in front of a giant red button clearly labelled "Launch ALL the nukes!" the struggle to restrain one's desire to see what happens is a... difficult one.

[Doom]

Oh good, let's change the narrative to "I lost because of electoral shenanigans" instead of "I lost because I could barely conceal my erection while talking about four people who got murdered."

I'd settle for "I lost because I alienated Ron Paul's fanbase and fractured my party early" and speeding up the hopeful split between actual Conservatives(who have been fleeing the party for awhile) and their incredibly toxic hate-filled base. I did think that the RNC showcased a really critical moment where Romney may have depressed his own turnout into a guaranteed loss by snubbing the Ron Paul nutjobs. Ron Paul's boys are kind out there, Romney... but good job smothering the GOP youth vote.

We're also honestly at the point of obstructionism that we can expect a pointless impeachment attempt against Obama if he wins in the next four years, on top of accusations of imaginary Chicago thugs or something rigging the election between Nov 7th and January.

[Mongrel]

We're also honestly at the point of obstructionism that we can expect a pointless impeachment attempt against Obama if he wins in the next four years, on top of accusations of imaginary Chicago thugs or something rigging the election between Nov 7th and January.

What was it Brent said about not wanting rules because as soon as everything is written out some asshole's trying to game the system?

To an outsider, that's what the US looks like. With hundreds, even thousands of years of experience showing people are fallible, you guys tried an entirely rules-based system. But that's just a dodge - it's only LOOKS like it's entirely rules based. There are still a ton of traditions that were always necessary for government to function even halfway decently. You could never have rules for EVERYTHING. Even if the US was some construct programmed entirely as an MMO on a computer somewhere.

That's been happening up here in Canada, with King Steve breaking every unwritten rule he hears about. But in our case tradition has always been a bigger part of government, so it's almost more of an earthshattering thing (and just as disappointing or destructive).

I don't know, you never really come back from someone pointing out the emperor has no clothes on. Once the illusion of sacrosanct tradition is broken, there's no going back. People usually think things like "Well I guess we need a rule for that now." but ultimately the problem isn't the rules, it's the people.

[Thad]

I'd settle for "I lost because I alienated Ron Paul's fanbase and fractured my party early"

What about "I lost because the Electoral College is fucking terrible"?  Would be nice to hear that from a Republican.  Because Republicans might actually try to do something about it.

Won't really happen, though.  "What if there's an ELECTORAL TIE?!" is one of those stupid little hypotheticals the news media trot out every four years to try and make the year-long fucking slog to Election Day more exciting.

Like "What if Arizona's votes actually matter this time?"

[Royal☭]

Less "conspiracy theory" is the, well, sickening idea that that a bunch of anti-muslim racists were trying to promote their stupid ass video, and seized upon a horrifying tragedy to try and push their crap into the media spotlight.

[Metal Slime]

"I think the challenge that I'll have in the debate is that the president tends to, how shall I say it, to say things that aren't true," Romney said in an interview that aired Friday on ABC's "Good Morning America."