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Author Topic: News from the North  (Read 59695 times)

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Mongrel

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #340 on: January 27, 2010, 01:55:27 PM »

Well, the machinery for integrating "right to return" jews is very well-oiled and has been operating almost since the country was founded, so no real surprises there.

(This is actually a somewhat positive comment, in case anybody was wondering).
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SCD

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #341 on: January 27, 2010, 06:17:44 PM »

I believe you answer your own question there.  This might be one of the few times I have the privilege of saying "check mate", and I don't think this could happen again for a long time.
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Mongrel

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #342 on: January 27, 2010, 07:27:16 PM »

... but I wasn't asking a question.

???  :OoO:
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SCD

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #343 on: January 27, 2010, 07:43:56 PM »

The question of "Jewish refugee camps" and their current state is what you were asking for from the article, which never gave it directly.. because there are none..?

Damn it.. my logic still trips over itself because the op-ed is flimsy by its own nature.  Do I ever feel like one of those cartoon antagonists right about now..
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Mongrel

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #344 on: January 27, 2010, 09:02:38 PM »

Oh. LOL.

I was mostly just complaining about the op-ed posing as an article.
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Mongrel

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #345 on: January 28, 2010, 07:42:15 PM »

Compromise withdrawl starts to take shape.

So SCD, what're your thoughts on this?
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SCD

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #346 on: January 28, 2010, 09:50:58 PM »

Long winded stuff comes to mind. 

There cannot be concrete dates, just opportunities and honor for those who are willing to fight for their villages and towns as opposed as their outworld ideologies. 

The war has to end, but first the real work is just starting with our troop increase.  I am happy to see that the civilian end appears to be working a wee bit, but every nation's foreign ministry so far has made almost nothing but mess with either their laziness or inconsistency after cabinet shuffle leaving the officers with the war and the diplomatic work. 

Also a friend gave me a call the other day and gripped about how today's rocket attack just happened as he was heading for the bathroom... bad.  He was not amused, so I told him "hey buddy, do what I do when the rockets come falling down and just remember that for those freaks to get virgins, they have to die and even then they're stuck with the 42 for all eternity....

Where all you or I have to do is just head to the local university  :suave:"

He laughed.  It's a weird thing to think, that out here, you think of them as people to be converted, wheras you call the people setting off the mortars and rockets a fire mission.  Professional courtesy?
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Mongrel

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #347 on: January 29, 2010, 04:01:44 AM »

Rocket attack? You referring to a friend in Afghanistan, or to this?
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Büge

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Mongrel

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #349 on: January 30, 2010, 05:24:03 PM »

Supreme Court of Canada rules that Omar Khadr must be repatriated.

A 9-0 ruling. Wow. WOW. That is literally as strong a repudiation as the Supreme Court can give.

Regardless of what anyone might think of the kid, the Federal Government can no longer stick their fingers in their ears and pretend he isn't a Canadian citizen. Because, that's effectively what they were doing.

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SCD

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #350 on: January 30, 2010, 07:27:25 PM »

No mongrel, the editorial skewed it.  The SC said that there were chapter seven human rights violations upon him, but the court has no effective sway over this event, or foreign affairs and cannot do anything about it.  Must was not used in that context in the ruling at all.  I could not find any original text of the demand for repat.

Here's an instance of the word "must" in the document:

all government power must be exercised in accordance with the Constitution

Be careful with your words.  This isn't Pakistan, after all.


Now lets forget about that garbage press and move on to the actual information:

http://www.scc-csc.gc.ca/decisions/Khadr-en.pdf

IV. Conclusion
[48] The appeal is allowed in part. Mr. Khadr’s application for judicial review is allowed
in part. This Court declares that through the conduct of Canadian officials in the course of
interrogations in 2003-2004, as established on the evidence before us, Canada actively participated
in a process contrary to Canada’s international human rights obligations and contributed to Mr.
Khadr’s ongoing detention so as to deprive him of his right to liberty and security of the person
guaranteed by s. 7 of the Charter, contrary to the principles of fundamental justice. Costs are
awarded to Mr. Khadr.

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Mongrel

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #351 on: January 30, 2010, 07:58:02 PM »

I was re-reading the ruling in more detail. You're technically right on all counts. However, to all intents and purposes, they have set things up so that no other outcome is possible.

Relevant (from elsewhere, not the ruling):

Quote
The court refrained, wisely, from ordering Ottawa to try to bring Mr. Khadr, a citizen, home from the United States prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where he has been for seven years. It was wise partly because the court lacks "institutional competence" in foreign affairs (as the court itself pointed out), and partly because matters of foreign affairs are a Crown prerogative, rarely to be settled by judges (as the court also pointed out).

The ruling was in fact the Supreme Court playing it very cautiously by giving the Goverment one last chance to "take the hint", as it were. But again, they've very cleverly laid things out in such a way that their ruling is all but enforced. Because if the government does NOT "take the hint", Khadr's lawyers now have pretty much inassailable legal grounds (a 9-0 Supreme Court ruling largely in their favour) to base an appeal on. If such an appeal is launched, the Supreme Court has given the Government a very clear and fair warning on how they they will rule in such a case.

The most key line may be the rather thinly veiled threat quoted verbatim from the ruling by the article:

Quote
“courts are empowered to make orders ensuring that the government's foreign affairs prerogative is exercised in accordance with the constitution.”

So again, while the government is not (yet) legally obligated to begin repatriation proceedings, they've been placed in an untenable position.

And that's fine by me.
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SCD

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #352 on: February 01, 2010, 03:51:14 PM »

As untenable as this one is, do not expect any movement by any of the two parties. 

Alright, I tend to be pretty quiet about proroguing parliaments as it is a commonplace occurrence in the national and provincial levels (especially in BC, where they decided to push though most of the legislation in September and called it a day).  It's a tool that's generally used by majority parties and while people like to say it's done when most of the agenda is pushed through, the tories pushed all they could for the time being until the senate appointments were thrown through, no matter what the liberals want you to think. 

Executive summary:  it was used as a political tool in the favor of the governing party to kill off dissent in the government house just like every other prorogation. 

 Fact:  The tories have used it to their advantage to lead.  So far, between cutting the strings of UNRWA, and assisting Haiti in record time (not to mention giving the tools to the military in the form of tactical and strategic lift aircraft) were a modest start. 

Next, using the G8 and G20 for a reasonable goal which does not require a herculean task, but a simple cost-effective series of solutions which can dramatically affect the quality of life of several developing nations (link1 - nationalpost article) was one of his more recent ideas that might have lasting implications, indeed - but this is something that has really stricken me:

Prentice does a U Turn with the oilsands, makes the call towards corporations to fix the issue


This is pretty interesting to me, as while I'm not sold as a Harperite, I am once again enjoying his game as a tactician.  While the NDP and Liberals are crying afoul about the ministers not being in the hill yelling at each other over question period in what is the most undignified sport known to man, and yes I understand fully the implications of the word "sport", Harper is not only out playing his usual game of chess, but he is doing the job of leading the nation in the process, or at the bare minimum appearing to do so with solid and sound policies in small areas which they are more effective. 

He is also delegating.  He's letting Baird tour the airport security and cry with the orphans - which perfect considering he's a big giant teddy bear with a voice which could give any would-be terrorist PSTD.  He's letting MacKay run his show, which he is doing rather well easily at the level of Bill Graham, despite not having as favorable conditions as the later.  He's letting Jim Prentice do what he's wanted to do for sometime - no, what he needs to do as environment minister. 

I wouldn't hear too much from Stockwell Day however.  He's not going to be in the limelight, but given the praise from Harper, I expect he's doing his own cost-cutting business... not effectively but studiously.  No one is going to like Stockwell day in awhile, and I would be certain that both he, Harper and the rest of the Cabinet understand that well. 

I've never liked the present day tories except that their leader is a fantastic chess player, and they are still a hell of a lot better than the alternative (see:  no more longarm registry, private members bill on gay marriage, etc)

Oddly enough, last thursday I had a good conversation with a Saudi Expat named Mohammed about local politics.  Guy tells me that of all the leaders, he likes Harper on his own merits as his foreign policy is more focused, leading me to think of the contrasts between the titles the Economist has dubbed him including "The one-candle man", which stands in contrasts to Mr Martin's "Mr Dithers' Fiscal Cafeteria", only with foreign policy.  I don't have any other backings, but stuff that I've thrown up makes that more apparent. 

Perhaps that's why people in the Universities really cannot think of what Mr Harper has done for Canada in a lasting sense, in contrast to the killing of funds for many NGO's that promoted women's rights, and other nice-to-have things.  Perhaps a coherent and straightforward foreign policy is what will end up his legacy. 

For what it's worth, I say that the RMR Slap chop election is going to hold true next round.

IM:  I'm interested in your thoughts in particular, as well as anyone else who has good examples of where exactly I'm wrong.  Heck knows you're all a civil bunch.
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Büge

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #353 on: February 01, 2010, 04:18:48 PM »

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Mongrel

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #354 on: February 03, 2010, 11:59:27 AM »

As untenable as this one is, do not expect any movement by any of the two parties.  

Alright, I tend to be pretty quiet about proroguing parliaments as it is a commonplace occurrence in the national and provincial levels (especially in BC, where they decided to push though most of the legislation in September and called it a day).  It's a tool that's generally used by majority parties and while people like to say it's done when most of the agenda is pushed through, the tories pushed all they could for the time being until the senate appointments were thrown through, no matter what the liberals want you to think.  

Executive summary:  it was used as a political tool in the favor of the governing party to kill off dissent in the government house just like every other prorogation.  

 Fact:  The tories have used it to their advantage to lead.  So far, between cutting the strings of UNRWA, and assisting Haiti in record time (not to mention giving the tools to the military in the form of tactical and strategic lift aircraft) were a modest start.  

Next, using the G8 and G20 for a reasonable goal which does not require a herculean task, but a simple cost-effective series of solutions which can dramatically affect the quality of life of several developing nations (link1 - nationalpost article) was one of his more recent ideas that might have lasting implications, indeed - but this is something that has really stricken me:

Prentice does a U Turn with the oilsands, makes the call towards corporations to fix the issue.  


This is pretty interesting to me, as while I'm not sold as a Harperite, I am once again enjoying his game as a tactician.  While the NDP and Liberals are crying afoul about the ministers not being in the hill yelling at each other over question period in what is the most undignified sport known to man, and yes I understand fully the implications of the word "sport", Harper is not only out playing his usual game of chess, but he is doing the job of leading the nation in the process, or at the bare minimum appearing to do so with solid and sound policies in small areas which they are more effective.  

He is also delegating.  He's letting Baird tour the airport security and cry with the orphans - which perfect considering he's a big giant teddy bear with a voice which could give any would-be terrorist PSTD.  He's letting MacKay run his show, which he is doing rather well easily at the level of Bill Graham, despite not having as favorable conditions as the later.  He's letting Jim Prentice do what he's wanted to do for sometime - no, what he needs to do as environment minister.  

I wouldn't hear too much from Stockwell Day however.  He's not going to be in the limelight, but given the praise from Harper, I expect he's doing his own cost-cutting business... not effectively but studiously.  No one is going to like Stockwell day in awhile, and I would be certain that both he, Harper and the rest of the Cabinet understand that well.  

I've never liked the present day tories except that their leader is a fantastic chess player, and they are still a hell of a lot better than the alternative (see:  no more longarm registry, private members bill on gay marriage, etc)

Oddly enough, last thursday I had a good conversation with a Saudi Expat named Mohammed about local politics.  Guy tells me that of all the leaders, he likes Harper on his own merits as his foreign policy is more focused, leading me to think of the contrasts between the titles the Economist has dubbed him including "The one-candle man", which stands in contrasts to Mr Martin's "Mr Dithers' Fiscal Cafeteria", only with foreign policy.  I don't have any other backings, but stuff that I've thrown up makes that more apparent.  

Perhaps that's why people in the Universities really cannot think of what Mr Harper has done for Canada in a lasting sense, in contrast to the killing of funds for many NGO's that promoted women's rights, and other nice-to-have things.  Perhaps a coherent and straightforward foreign policy is what will end up his legacy.  

For what it's worth, I say that the RMR Slap chop election is going to hold true next round.

IM:  I'm interested in your thoughts in particular, as well as anyone else who has good examples of where exactly I'm wrong.  Heck knows you're all a civil bunch.

Huh, I have no idea why I didn't see your post before.

I too can admire Harper's deviousness to a degree, but it's like watching a man cleverly steal candy from children with Down's Syndrome (yes, I am most definitely placing Iggy and Jackie in that category). Then you remember that this is the best we can do and whoa is that ever depressing.

Agreed on your ministerial assessments.

As for the prorogue thing, I don't think it's really so much an issue of practical outcome. the Canadian goverment has a long traditoin of taking too much time off.

For me it bugged me more for two reasons. 1) It's one of those times when you're reminded just how little regard Harper has for both the public and even his own supposed 'principles', when he lets the iron shield slip a little and you find yourself looking at something very ugly. 2) A lot of Canadian parliamentary checks and balances are purely traditional. I always wondered what would happen when a Prime Minister started to just out-and-out ignore those. Well, now I know. And while it may eventually lead to some kind of reform, I don't like it.

A final FYI there: I have an infinitely greater amount respect for Preston Manning than I do Harper. I might disagree sometimes on individual issues, but the good parson had an actual vision for making a better Canada, reached out to folks, and has a moral compass that's as true as a rod.



***


And now, the reason I came to the thread this afternoon in the first place:

Harper Government continues to refuse Khadr repatriation.

Well, I guess we're gonna find out what happens after all! :glee:
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SCD

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #355 on: February 03, 2010, 03:01:50 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-j8nN4ELUI&feature=related

That's it.  Do not expect to see anything else done about it. 

I'm shocked though about your respect, or memory of Mr Manning.  I supported him way back in the Reform days, despite some of the prairie dogs he had to put up with, the poor soul. 

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Mongrel

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #356 on: February 04, 2010, 04:37:50 AM »

Oh I definitely expect a follow-up, because the Supreme Court effectively double-dog-dared them to do this.

I mentioned Manning because damned if he isn't a much better example of the kind of person Alberta can bring to the party when "principled man" is chosen over "blatant opportunist". Of course Harper 'won' whereas Manning couldn't get east of Manitoba, but then again we never saw that would have happened had Manning actually been a leader of a national conservative party instead of a regional one.
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SCD

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #357 on: February 04, 2010, 08:41:48 PM »

Follow up?  You're on.    :nyah:

Case of beer (12 - local microbrew) for you if the Supreme court follows up in a fashion that doesn't involve compensation for Khadar's defense, or compensation for himself on return to Canada. (as the former was written into the verdict already)

Case of beer for me (ditto) if the Supreme Court doesn't follow up with exception of the aforementioned by the next election.  

Draw (we split the costs of a 12 pack and drink away) if Supreme Court awards fat stacks of cash for Khadar upon his return, nothing else.  

Deal?  I will be training in K-town again next summer, and will redeem around that time.
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Büge

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #358 on: February 04, 2010, 09:26:29 PM »

Fools! I am proroguing beer production and retail! All Hail King Steve!
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Mongrel

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Re: News from the North
« Reply #359 on: February 05, 2010, 04:28:27 AM »

Follow up?  You're on.    :nyah:

Case of beer (12 - local microbrew) for you if the Supreme court follows up in a fashion that doesn't involve compensation for Khadar's defense, or compensation for himself on return to Canada. (as the former was written into the verdict already)

Case of beer for me (ditto) if the Supreme Court doesn't follow up with exception of the aforementioned by the next election. 

Draw (we split the costs of a 12 pack and drink away) if Supreme Court awards fat stacks of cash for Khadar upon his return, nothing else. 

Deal?  I will be training in K-town again next summer, and will redeem around that time.

Huh? But this won't even work. The court ruling isn't about compensation, it's about forcing the government to bring him back. Khadr might sue separately later or something, but that's it's own can of worms and - more importantly - a totally separate legal case.

The only thing being ruled on is whether or not the government is obligated to request his return from the United States, as (everything else aside) he is a citizen whose rights are being violated.

The recent Supreme Court ruling stopped just short of ordering the government to bring him home, so as to avoid causing a constitutional nightmare (since Canadians just LOVE those), but the court made it very clear in their ruling that they do have the power to make that request if forced to.

The Harper government has now effectively said "make me". In order for things to continue, the next step must be a new legal challenge from Khadr's lawyers that basically asks the same thing as the previous one did: For the government to bring Khadr back to Canada. It will then go to the Supreme Court again, where this time they will almost certainly rule to force the government to ask for a return. And then we'll have an unholy mess and who knows what will happen after THAT. Or maybe Harper loses an election in the interim and this all becomes a moot point.

Now I'm willing to bet on some of the above happening, but not about compensation.
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