Thad, it kills me to see you stand up for these movies.
I'm standing up for ELEMENTS of them. There's a difference.
My point, more than anything, is that Lucas is driven by visuals. He knows what he wants to see up on screen. And where he stumbles, hard, is in creating the emotional connection with his characters. (Below, you complain, over and over, that the problem with the action scenes is that you just don't give a fuck about the characters. That's much the same point I'm making.)
He even knows, theoretically, how that's supposed to work. Quiet scenes with Padme and Anakin at the lakehouse. It is not coincidental that I have described the single worst sequence in the entire series.
Part of it is that Lucas is absolutely terrible at natural dialogue, and part of it is that he should fire his casting director.
I can understand the likes of Thundercats, because there's some genuine creativity going on there, but jesus
I think that's an interesting insight too -- the biggest problem with the prequels is the total lack of creativity.
The original trilogy was derivative as hell, but there's just so much fucking excitement there. The creativity may not be there in the storytelling, but it's there in every costume, every set, every prop. Star Wars is goddamn wonderful because the attack on the Death Star is actually a camera zooming across ping-pong tables, and because
the Falcon is so lovingly constructed out of spare parts.
That's where Lucas lost the plot, I think. It's trite to say "He got rich and out-of-touch", but it's got some truth to it too. We don't love Star Wars for the plot or the mythology -- at least, not JUST for those -- we love it because all that shit looks like it was built in somebody's garage. And because the breakout star was the goddamn janitor.
I was going to leave all this for my big finish, but fuck it, this isn't an essay, we're just having a conversation. I think the point of all this should be, as intriguing as the mooted idea of actually-good prequels is, if there's a team out there that can do right by the Star Wars name, I'd rather see them make something new. Do what Lucas and his team did: cobble some shit together out of spare parts on a bare budget, and operate as much outside the studio system as you can get away with. Yes, for every Star Wars there are a million sad MST3K-bait wannabes, but I KNOW there are people out there who can make something really, genuinely great AND make it out of household parts.
...since I mention MST3K, that's another great example of low-budget SF made out of supplies from the hardware store. And need I mention Doctor Who?
We go to Kashyyyk for all of five minutes, wherein we see an awkward battle sequence with rolling wheel robot cars and Wookies armed only with crossbows sitting in ditches firing at armor. At the very least, I don't get why there are water-wheel assault vehicles when you would probably just have a hovering spaceship of some kind at this point in future warfare, and I don't get why the wookies don't have some kind of anti-armor technology or capability. This would be forgivable if the machines and by extension every shot with them in it did not look completely ridiculous - if the battle had looked or felt particularly cool - but it was just weird and aesthetically absurd and impossible to feel anything for when you know only Yoda, who promptly leaves.
I'll grant I saw the movie once. I remember enjoying Kashyyyk but I also remember most of the fights being clusterfucks.
If "boring clusterfuck" is your complaint, then fair enough. But if you're going to start complaining about the logic of weaponry and vehicles in Star Wars then I think that's the wrong direction. Keep in mind this is a universe where a sword is a better weapon than a gun, said swords are made of lasers that stop after a few feet, fighter jets can only shoot things directly in front of them, and instead of treads tanks have long spindly legs. Every single thing in the series is designed for how cool it will look in an action scene, not because it makes any kind of logical sense.
So, if your complaint is "The action scene didn't look cool" then fair enough -- like I say, I remember enjoying it but it's been years, and that's subjective.
And I CERTAINLY think that, while the giant spinny-wheel things aren't actually much sillier than Imperial Walkers, they are not nearly as goddamn cool a design.
As a planet, we've already seen Kashyyyk when it was Endor. I would have preferred any kind of planet or location I had not already seen.
That's fair enough. I'd argue the opposing view that we were supposed to see Kashyyyk instead of Endor the first damn time, and it was nice to finally get it. But yeah, it's not the same.
I really really wish they had not fucked Yoda up. He would have given some much needed dignity to any scene he was in.
Agree. I never wanted to see Yoda actually fight. I always hoped that anyone short of Sidious or maybe Dooku would just saying something along the lines of "Oh shit! Yoda's coming!" and bail. That his capabilities merely be implied, rather than shown. That maybe even goes for Sidous too, I guess.
As for an actual fight, I thought it would have been much cooler if Yoda either fought entirely with Force energy (i.e. the Emperor tries to fry him with lighting and he just deflects it back), or if he (or both of them) just sat and meditated while their sabres fought each other telekinetically.
Basically that Batman Beyond fight Bal posted earlier today, only instead of an evil fat psychic, it's Yoda. That's really how I envisioned Yoda fighting. I think a lot of people would have assumed that, really.
I'll buy all those criticisms, but I don't think any of those examples make for great visuals. (There's a Thundercats where Lion-O fights Mumm-Ra-disguised-as-King-Arthur and it devolves into the Sword of Omens and Excalibur duking it out in midair. It's a perfectly decent episode but the swords-in-the-sky fight scene is silly. And then it's an "oh shit" moment when Excalibur pokes the Eye of Thundera out, followed by a Jaga Fixes Everything anticlimax.)
I like the idea that Yoda's still spry in a fight when he needs to be, but that he only bothers to set the cane down at greatest need. I guess the problem, as much as anything, is that he loses both fights -- though Brent's argument that he loses because he chooses to fight in the first place is an interesting one.
The fight with Maul was great, but it is absolutely true that you could have swapped out Maul for any other evil character and it would not have changed anything. We knew nothing and end up knowing nothing about him but that he looks and we assume is genuinely evil.
So what's the problem?
Is there any villain in Star Wars who hasn't become LESS interesting as we've found out more about him? The entire prequel trilogy devalues one of the greatest villains in cinema history by transforming him into a whiny, petulant child.
Maul looks cool and doesn't say much or overstay his welcome. He's like the Boba Fett of the prequel trilogy, except he has better fight scenes and his death isn't lame. He's about the best you can ask for from a Star Wars villain who isn't named Darth Vader.
I liked Qui-Gon, he's Obi-Wan's Obi-Wan. I wish they had made him at all unique from the Obi-Wan we see in A New Hope. There was nothing new to see there.
Sure there was. OT Obi-Wan had no Jedi Council to bounce off, whereas Qui-Gon is defined largely in terms of his relationship to the Council. He's really the only example we see (other than Anakin) of a Jedi who thinks the Council is full of shit and is willing to tell them so to their faces.
The real missed opportunity is Prequel Obi-Wan. Brent noted the underutilized contrast between Obi-Wan dealing with Qui-Gon's death and his own, and correctly noted that it's the only real growth his character gets. Prequel Obi-Wan is basically a Jedi stooge; he's as blind as the rest of them. We never really see the potential of General Kenobi or the Clone Wars -- hell, I guess I really SHOULD watch the show, because the more I think about it the more I think Lucas skipped over the richest mine.
Qui-Gon is the only Jedi we see who's a bit of a rebel, who breaks the rules because they're stupid -- again, aside from Anakin.
Ooh, here's another interesting, totally-underused avenue to explore: Obi-Wan trains Anakin to be like Qui-Gon.
The Maul fight was great, the battle with the space depth charges from the Slave I was quite cool, the fight with the Clone Army right afterwards is entertaining if very unfortunately video gamey (compare this with any action sequence from the original triology, and it just lacks visceral feeling or empathetic connection), and some of the Jengo Fett battle was nice.
Points off for using "video gamey" as a shorthand pejorative, but I know what you mean. The clones forming up, that whole sequence -- it's impressive after its own fashion, but the tech is so severely limited, and was dated by the time it came out. (Had we already seen the trailer for The Two Towers by then?)
But yeah, I like those bits.
I even like the pod race -- the damn thing's too long and its narrative reasons for actually being in the movie border on the nonexistent, but it's one of the most coherent action sequences in the prequel trilogy.
The Grevious battle was beyond farce. I say that yes, as a man who fucking adored Tartakovsky's take on Grevious, but also just, as a man who can enjoy even the stupidest things if they are entertaining. It was easily the most expensive Stupidest Fucking Thing I have ever seen in a movie (I have seen Transformers 2).
Again, saw it once; I remember feeling like that scene was dragging though. I'll agree that Grievous was pretty poorly-realized and in fact came out of fucking nowhere.
The final riding-robots-over-lava clash between Obi-Wan and Anikan was doing okay when they were inside that control room thing in close-quarters fighting, then very very quickly gets very very hard to take seriously as they're dangling from the ladder, slashing at each other over a lava waterfall.
I remember thinking the whole sequence was pretty good, really. Certainly the "fighting over the gates of Hell" angle was unsubtle but well-presented.
My major gripe is, as everywhere else, the characterization. They just keep shouting ridiculous dialogue at each other. And as somebody here pointed out, it doesn't really match the next time they see each other with just the cool "It's been a long time" chit-chat.
Actually, this is another contradiction I've griped about before: all this talk about giving into anger and losing control. When have you ever seen a Sith Lord who was actually enraged, or less than totally in-control? OT Vader is totally cold and understated. He doesn't scream, he doesn't rage, he says things like "I find your lack of faith disturbing." The Emperor -- okay, he does the Force Lightning thing, but mostly he just talks. Quietly, coaxingly. Maul barely says a word, and Saruman keeps pretty cool too.
And then there's goddamn Anakin, all bitchin' and moanin' and wiping out Sand People because they killed his mom.
Someone once said to me that the rage is essentially a gateway drug to the Dark Side, that that's what pulls you in but then you learn to control it. That's an interesting angle, and yet another one that the movies ignore entirely.
I don't think I need to go into the space battle in Episode 1. The Gungan battle was just brutally retarded, obviously.
It wasn't so bad until Jar-Jar started singlehandedly winning it with a droid stuck to his foot.
The gladiator battle was tedious and cartoonish and by then I still did not give a quarter-shit about any of the characters involved, or their bug and frogmen antagonists.
Fair, but again, that's mostly a criticism of the characterization rather than actual fight choreography.
My biggest gripe with the arena is that it's a fucking cliche at this point. Find me an SF series that DOESN'T do an arena bit and I'll be interested.
As for the actual fight choreography I thought it was pretty neat. It was probably Windu's best moment too.
The space battle at the start of Episode III was a joyless, aimless shitshow with no way to discern the stakes or who was winning or losing or what we were seeing or if we were supposed to care about the deaths of the republic troops (it was never revealed in the movies if the clones were thinking individuals or mindless obedient drones fresh out of the oven).
Again, that's a characterization gripe, and I have no argument with those.
I remember liking the look of the fleet of ships hovering over the planet, and thinking the actual fight/escape sequence was pretty neat (albeit one of the more glaring examples of Star Wars physics -- why does blowing up a ship cause it to immediately crash into the planet?).
The Light/Dark spectrum in Star Wars tends to throw people off because they're used to the concepts being tied to either the Moral or Legal axes of the D&D alignment chart, rather than a measure of control versus obsession (losing oneself to hate, anger, greed, lust, power, etc).
You and I've both made the D&D comparison, and it's just hit me that this is the problem Lyrai was griping about WRT the "Light Side Sith" in TOR: it's a Star Wars game made by a bunch of D&D devs.
Fuck, we even have Hutt Jedi.
Oh I love this.
This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about when I said I like doing unexpected things with alien races.
...
...you know what I mean.
