Topic: Occupy Wall Street (Read 37737 times)

Thad · « **Reply #320 on:** November 30, 2011, 06:50:02 AM »

So here's something I never expected to say: it looks like the LAPD is doing a pretty good job, and other departments should really watch and learn.

What a change multiple national scandals and a federal takeover can make.

Royal☭ · « **Reply #321 on:** November 30, 2011, 06:56:34 AM »

Thad likes a bit of kindness with his repression.

Thad · « **Reply #322 on:** November 30, 2011, 07:36:03 AM »

Oh, for fuck's sake, dude.

Yes, yes, you hates polices. We get it. Presumably you can tell the goddamn difference between a nonviolent arrest and point-blank pepper-spraying.

Or, not to put too fine a point on it, surrounding a man and beating him with clubs.

Royal☭ · « **Reply #323 on:** November 30, 2011, 07:55:24 AM »

At the end of the day, there were still 200 people arrested. You're acting like the cops are being civil just because they didn't bust heads when they broke up the camp and humiliated people. But the end point of these raids and arrests is not to crack skulls, it's to exhaust the protesters into leaving. Yeah, it's great that they're not violently rupturing a man's spleen, but that doesn't make arresting 200 people for protesting any less repressive.

Brentai · « **Reply #324 on:** November 30, 2011, 08:00:04 AM »

Tell me what you had rather they had done.

Royal☭ · « **Reply #325 on:** November 30, 2011, 08:05:31 AM »

Put down their arms and gone home.

Brentai · « **Reply #326 on:** November 30, 2011, 08:07:32 AM »

Fair enough! You know already what I'm going to respond to that with though:

Who do you think Antonio Villaraigosa is going to call next, and where do you think they're going to take people to?

Royal☭ · « **Reply #327 on:** November 30, 2011, 08:31:55 AM »

Is this conversation really about to become "Well, how do you want the police state to be run?"

Brentai · « **Reply #328 on:** November 30, 2011, 08:43:20 AM »

I think it did a decade ago, honestly.

Thad · « **Reply #329 on:** November 30, 2011, 08:57:48 AM »

Quote from: Constantmean on November 30, 2011, 07:55:24 AM

At the end of the day, there were still 200 people arrested.

200 people who VOLUNTEERED to be arrested, as a statement.

I'm not entirely sure you understand how civil disobedience works, beyond "fuck tha po-lice."

Quote from: Constantmean on November 30, 2011, 07:55:24 AM

You're acting like the cops are being civil just because they didn't bust heads when they broke up the camp and humiliated people.

And you're acting like they're NOT being civil just because they're, well, police.

I don't see evidence of humiliation. You're welcome to point me to some. Actual evidence, I mean, not dogmatic circular reasoning.

Quote from: Constantmean on November 30, 2011, 07:55:24 AM

But the end point of these raids and arrests is not to crack skulls, it's to exhaust the protesters into leaving.

No shit.

Quote from: Constantmean on November 30, 2011, 07:55:24 AM

Yeah, it's great that they're not violently rupturing a man's spleen, but that doesn't make arresting 200 people for protesting any less repressive.

Of course it fucking does. Not hitting someone with a club is less repressive than hitting someone with a club.

Quote from: Constantmean on November 30, 2011, 08:31:55 AM

Is this conversation really about to become "Well, how do you want the police state to be run?"

Constantine, that is EXACTLY the way you have been trying to steer this conversation, for literally weeks. You're going to need to find a question to ask besides "When did you stop beating your wife?"

Brentai · « **Reply #330 on:** November 30, 2011, 09:05:08 AM »

Okay okay, but clever bites aside, here's the problem: You hit the core issue on the head with that one sentence and are still not addressing it.

A. Yes, this is basically a police state now.
B. Yes, the police exist to enforce the will of the local power.

What you're not getting is that A is a real problem, and B is only half of a picture. In truth, the purpose of the police force is to be the least civilly disruptive (e.g. the least oppressive) enforcement of local power. Their absence doesn't solve A at fucking all, it just forces the local power to move on to the next enforcement arm. And it's pure fantasy to think they'll run out of those any time soon: if it's not the police or the military, then it's mercenaries, criminals or even fucking terrorists. There's a point where appeals to reason stop working, because if there weren't a lot of people willing to beat or kill for money then there wouldn't be people paying them to do so in the first place.

As long as A exists, people will get beaten, B or no B.

So yes, if you're not going to address the fact that, you know, someone besides the police is responsible for the actions of the police*, then the only conversation we can have is who you want to be carrying the big stick. As is, those of us who fucking care about something bigger than those mean people in cars are seeing that stick getting less blunt, and that's progress.

* To a certain point; the police have their hands tied re: clearing the place out but can certainly choose not to attack people, which is what they chose last night.

Thad · « **Reply #331 on:** November 30, 2011, 09:42:37 AM »

Not so fast, I guess: some protesters ARE alleging police violence.

As much as anything, for proof that the LAPD has reformed we're going to need to see how it handles those cases.

Thad · « **Reply #332 on:** November 30, 2011, 09:54:30 AM »

Oh hey here's another fun one: San Diego police arrest congressional candidate passing out voter registration forms at -- no shit -- Freedom Plaza.

Norondor · « **Reply #333 on:** November 30, 2011, 03:04:30 PM »

"ugh, you hippies are so stupid. don't you know cops are the good guys?"

Brentai · « **Reply #334 on:** November 30, 2011, 10:39:31 PM »

These cops, obviously, are not. The more you equate "terrible policemen" to "all policemen", the more validated their actions are. It's not their fault their job makes them horrible!

Royal☭ · « **Reply #335 on:** December 01, 2011, 06:56:03 AM »

Brentai · « **Reply #336 on:** December 01, 2011, 07:43:19 AM »

Thank fuck.

Thad · « **Reply #337 on:** December 01, 2011, 08:52:29 AM »

Quote from: Kamran Loghman, inventor of pepper spray

It is becoming more and more fashionable right now, this day and age, to use [chemicals] on people who have an opinion.

(via)

Brentai · « **Reply #338 on:** December 01, 2011, 02:02:37 PM »

OWS isn't really in a position to do it because it'd look way too self-serving, but I'd like to see a new movement with "police reform" at the top of the list. Firstly because it's an easier victory to achieve for sure, since it's entirely within the power of the PDs to change, and I get the feeling they're not too tickled about the idea of protecting their own oppressors either. Secondly because it's nearly universal - I don't think there's anybody who's 100% satisfied with the way justice is being served in this country. And third and best, because as soon as the police stop giving the impression that they are what Norontine have come to believe that they are, we'll have gotten past one of the biggest roadblocks between OWS and actual change.

Norondor · « **Reply #339 on:** December 01, 2011, 02:09:16 PM »

am i supposed to be constantine now too

i'm already like... five people

i'm exhausted

News:

Author Topic: Occupy Wall Street (Read 37737 times)