Topic: Penn State Scandal (Read 11466 times)

Thad · « **Reply #100 on:** July 12, 2012, 01:01:14 PM »

Your post actually still works (though the present tense makes it a little awkward).

Mongrel · « **Reply #101 on:** July 12, 2012, 01:11:11 PM »

Quote from: Brentai on July 12, 2012, 09:31:18 AM

No mention of the stories of people wanting to go to the police, getting pulled into Paterno's office, and then suddenly not wanting to go to the police. That's a bit more than turning a blind eye I think.

Unless that gets addressed we're still at the WELL OL' JOE WAS REALLY JUST A FALLIBLE GUY AND IF ANYTHING HE'S ONLY GUILTY OF BEING TOO EASYGOING AND FRIENDLY line of rationalization.

I don't know about that. The actual text describes an incident when most everyone involved were ready to go to the police, when Paterno pulled them into his office and convinced them not to. It's going to take fucking champion-lunatic level rationaliztion to dismiss that.

Bal · « **Reply #102 on:** July 13, 2012, 07:49:48 AM »

Have you ever lived in a college town? College sports fans are probably the most fervent I've ever seen, even compared to fans of professional sports. It probably has to do with so many graduates of that institution still being in town, and the emotional connection the years they spent there leaves with them, but they will seriously riot over playoff games. Given that, from all accounts Penn State is about the biggest example of that in the country, and Paterno was (and I have no doubt still is to many) the patron saint of Football (with a capital F). You think Christianity has apologists? Paterno's apologists have got results to point to.

Büge · « **Reply #103 on:** July 13, 2012, 07:59:19 AM »

Yes but winning at football at the cost of harboring a known kiddy fiddler? Results or no, that's pretty damn sick.

Mongrel · « **Reply #104 on:** July 13, 2012, 08:21:29 AM »

Well, I did say "Champion-lunatic level rationalization". There's a free sample.

Thad · « **Reply #105 on:** July 13, 2012, 08:23:29 AM »

I've no doubt there will continue to be people who will defend him to the bitter end, no matter what comes out. There are already plenty of people saying "He did everything he was supposed to do"; this report will change some of their minds, but not all.

That said? I think his reputation's pretty fucking-well tarnished as far as everyone who isn't a Penn State fan is concerned, and if the media continues to focus attention on the story -- and particularly on the part where Paterno quite clearly and actively covered it up -- then that's going to become an even more common and even more bitter perception. Even, I suspect, among most Penn State alums.

But a lot of that's down to how long this story stays in the news. If there are prosecutions, it'll be a long time.

I take a sort of grim satisfaction in knowing that this started to unfold right before Paterno died -- no, he'll never have to face justice for it, but he went to his grave knowing that it was all starting to unravel and this would be what he was remembered for.

Ocksi · « **Reply #106 on:** July 13, 2012, 09:44:56 AM »

For anyone interested in how Joe Paterno got to be JoePa, and why people will defend him forever Deadspin posted a great story explaining not only his successes but also how the cult mentality has been forming in central PA for fifty years.

Also, Nike announced they're removing Joe Paterno's name from their child care center, which is a step in the right direction, as far as dismantling his legacy.

Friday · « **Reply #107 on:** July 13, 2012, 10:50:17 AM »

Yeah, I don't think Paterno was sitting at home, twisting his mustache and muttering "hahaha, I'm enabling a child rapist!" I DO agree that he probably rationalized it (because that's how human beings fucking work) and hoped it would just go away. I can perfectly see the mindset of a person who rationalizes something like this because "if the truth got out, it would harm our reputation." I can even see this kind of mindset extending to pulling people into an office and telling them not to go to the police, if that is what happened.

But, see, none of that shit matters. I mean, the bottom line is this:

If you find out about a child molester and take steps to prevent stopping him from molesting children, it doesn't fucking matter who you are, what you did in the past, why you're doing it, or how much you rationalize your actions.

Thad · « **Reply #108 on:** July 13, 2012, 01:09:27 PM »

Quote from: Friday on July 13, 2012, 10:50:17 AM

I can perfectly see the mindset of a person who rationalizes something like this because "if the truth got out, it would harm our reputation."

I can't.

Weighing the risk of what will happen if you tell the truth versus the risk of what will happen if you cover it up isn't even good sociopathy. Sociopaths are usually much better at rational cost-benefit analysis.

(Reducing it to likelihood times harm: (likelihood times harm to your reputation) from covering up child molestation always exceeds (likelihood times harm to your reputation) from publicizing child molestation, regardless of respective likelihoods -- because harm to your reputation from covering up child molestation is INFINITY.)

(Which is pretty much just a much nerdier way of phrasing your bolded sentence.)

Friday · « **Reply #109 on:** July 13, 2012, 01:16:34 PM »

Yeah, you can only understand it if you assume Paterno was also an idiot.

There's a lot of history of covering up child molestation because it is somehow inherently shameful to admit. It happens all the time in domestic families. Uncles rape little girls, the family finds out, and instead of reporting it to the authorities they just cover it up/downplay it. Sometimes they even try to tell the little girl it didn't happen as she said, or it wasn't so bad, etc etc etc. Shit happens all the time. This wasn't a domestic situation, of course, but I'm sure the same fucked up principles apply.

I've read case after case after case of children, both male and female, being molested by trusted adults, the family finding out, and then refusing to do anything about it.

Your guess is as good as mine as to exactly why. "A startling lack of empathy" indeed.

Thad · « **Reply #110 on:** July 13, 2012, 01:18:27 PM »

But I don't understand idiots.

(ALSO: Checking my math, I should footnote that likelihood of discovery, no matter how small, is always nonzero.)

Friday · « **Reply #111 on:** July 13, 2012, 01:29:25 PM »

Related, of course, is the Catholic Church attempting to do the exact same shit. Instead of throwing their CHILD MOLESTING priests in Jail, they attempted to cover it up, downplay it, etc, because "they didn't want to harm the reputation of the church."

And, of course, now their reputation is far more damaged.

Ocksi · « **Reply #112 on:** July 13, 2012, 01:30:32 PM »

You guys are focusing on Paterno covering it up for his own sake a bit too much; the reputation he was trying to avoid trampling was the school's (or, more specifically the football program, though the two have been fairly interchangeable for a couple decades). If it were strictly for his personal reputation, I'm sure he would've pulled the trigger. Having Molesto running your defense for national title winning teams casts THE PROGRAM into doubt. THE PROGRAM required its sterling reputation to be the national media powerhouse it's been. Paterno most certainly saw covering the situation up as delaying the inevitable, which was true, it kept the media off their backs for 13 extra years (18, by some accounts). He was by no accounts a stupid man.

I'm by no means trying to play apologist here. I am appalled by the whole thing. But you guys seem to think JoePa was stupidly trying to cover his own ass in this situation and that's simply not the case.

EDIT: regarding the "delay the inevitable only to cause more damage" thing: the emails between Paterno, Curley, and Spanier definitely show they knew the EVENTUAL consequences, but were prepared to ride the gravy train for as long as the story could be kept under wraps. Thus paying Sandusky $168k to retire just to get him out of any spotlight. You've got to keep in mind these guys were not only making MILLIONS from this football program. They were also quite literally REVERED.

Friday · « **Reply #113 on:** July 13, 2012, 01:32:59 PM »

Er, no, if you got that impression, that's not what I meant at all. I know he was covering for THE PROGRAM.

Quote

"if the truth got out, it would harm our reputation."

Mongrel · « **Reply #114 on:** July 13, 2012, 01:41:41 PM »

I sort of liked the angle that article tried to take that his long run of success early on led to hubris and a lack of self-doubt. He never questioned his own decisions because he had always been right, even though facts started to prove his judgment was in decline as time passed

Of course, that may not be true at all: Whether he was he more self-reflective when he was younger or would he have reported such things when he was younger are really questions we'll never have the answers for.

But one thing we do know is that while these kind of hush-up attempts and blaming-the-victim stuff may be well-known now, they were basically an ironclad rule in WASP society up until maybe thirty years ago. So there's a good chance this would have gone unreported by him at any stage of his career and that "he was an old man" defence was just the dodge it often is.

Ocksi · « **Reply #115 on:** July 13, 2012, 01:47:17 PM »

Oh, absolutely. He relied on the "old man" defense for the better part of the aughts. The most drastic example, I think, was his being too old to know about "rape and a man" in his final interview

Thad · « **Reply #116 on:** July 13, 2012, 01:57:01 PM »

Quote from: Friday on July 13, 2012, 01:32:59 PM

Er, no, if you got that impression, that's not what I meant at all. I know he was covering for THE PROGRAM.

Yeah, me too.

Doesn't matter a goddamn whose reputation he was defending; he (1) utterly failed and (2) would have failed at basic fucking human decency even if he had succeeded on the "reputation" front.

Shinra · « **Reply #117 on:** July 18, 2012, 05:14:52 AM »

Mongrel · « **Reply #118 on:** July 18, 2012, 05:18:59 AM »

OH WOW.

Brentai · « **Reply #119 on:** July 18, 2012, 06:48:47 AM »

So this is how it begins. Not over a tax or a bill, but over a dead coach.

News:

Author Topic: Penn State Scandal (Read 11466 times)