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Author Topic: This Is a Thing  (Read 4686 times)

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Pacobird

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This Is a Thing
« on: December 13, 2011, 10:20:08 AM »

Portal of Evil News is being shut down at the end of the year.  This is something I posted there some time back and I didn't want it to be lost in the purge, so I've decided to do double duty and cross-post it for your benefit to save it.

I was raised Catholic in a very Catholic part of town.  I grew up fascinated by the idea of science as it was explained to me; to make discoveries based on evidence, and to see that evidence in the world all around me. I internalized that and applied it to what my parents and church were telling me about God. I chose to see God's hand in this wonderfully-ordered universe I can barely comprehend even now. I believed it but would not have called myself devout by any stretch of the imagination.

When I was 14 and a Freshman in high school, I started attending a large area high school with a ton of people I didn't know and had the normal anxieties about fitting in. My older sister, who was at the time very religious, attended a religious retreat for teenagers in town and suggest that maybe I should go if I wanted to meet people; some people I half-knew from school would most likely be there. I thought, "why not? Maybe I can talk with people about how beautiful the idea of gravity is, how cool and tightly-packed evolution is, etc." So I went to the camp. This was my first exposure to what I would learn about 5 years later was part of the huge movement called "Evangelical Christianity".

My first time around was pretty harmless and fun. We laughed, sang songs, heard the sort of inspirational stuff you see pastors at megachurches preaching these days. It didn't make much of an impression on me spiritually but it was kind of fun and I got to know some classmates, so I signed up to go again, this time as a staffer.

I was assigned to something called the "prayer team". See, one of the Big Reveals for the new people at the end of the weekend is that this whole time, there has been this group of like ten of your peers behind the scenes taking shifts to pray for you around the clock, 24 hours a day. To an outsider I am sure it sounds bizarre but it struck me as a nice gesture.

Anyway, on prayer team this time there was this Evangelical kid. Home schooled, the works. The first night, he comes tearing into our sleeping area during his shift and wakes us up. He is babbling about having had a vision of a demon. I would have laughed it off but what happened next was one of the most chilling events of my entire teenage life.

The kid launched into this long description of a squat, lizard-like thing manning this huge bell on wheels, like a medieval siege belfry. In a panic, he says, he was scribling down nonsense on this penpad he happened to be holding (writing in tongues, I guess) and said the only thing legible after he recovered was the words "Mal Agog". He said he somehow knew that was the demons name.

Everyone looked really concerned about the presence of demons or this kid's grasp of reality or I don't even know what, but I just found myself repulsed by this. This was not the world of ordered, structured beauty I believed in. This was nonsense.

We got a counselor to come talk to the kid. He repeated the story, and the guy looked all grave and gave a speech about how we are engaged in spiritual warfare, how Satan doesn't like what we are doing here, and so forth.

I want to make something clear: when Evangelicals talk about "spiritual warfare", that is not a euphemism for their evangelism. In my experience, it reflects a sincere believe that behind the veil of physical reality, angels and demons are engaged in a violent battle for your soul. You, specifically.

As it is, my prayer shift was next. The counselor looked at me and said he would take over my shift if I was "too scared", like I was in physical danger if I took over prayer duties right then and there. I said I would go, that it was no problem, and everybody watched me leave the room quite literally like I was a soldier going off to war.

As I sat there praying, or trying to, I felt nothing. No presence at all. This space in which I was sitting was supposed to have been the spot of, I don't know, some kind of breach in physical reality and there was not a single part of my mind that did not consider it a plain, dark room.

And then it hit me.

I had never felt anything. Certainly nothing close to what was turning that homeschooled kid into blubbering paste over in the next room. Had he honestly thought he saw a demon? Was he scared he didn't, so he made the whole thing up to prove his piety?

Here I was, sending prayers into darkness. I heard nothing in return, and the definition of fanaticism is, when put in that situation, to pray louder.

I did not lose my faith in God then. I don't remember specifically when I started identifying as an atheist, but it definitely became inevitable after that night.
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Shinra

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2011, 11:31:10 AM »

oh my god the demons got you

they got you

they warfared you into atheism
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François

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2011, 12:06:24 PM »

I got two prayers:
-Thank you Lord (for when I feel grateful about something but don't have anybody else to thank)
-Lord, guide us (for when I'm worried about something I can do nothing about)

And those are not names of longer prayers. Those six words are the whole of my personal liturgy. And once-a-day deals, if that much. Having a team of youths pray 24 hours a day, in shifts... that's... that's inconceivable. A waste of time, and borderling insulting. Those people worship God like He was a moron. God's at least as smart as I am, and I sure don't need a bunch of people bugging me all day and all night to get the damn message already. You got a bunch of kids who want to do something good; open a soup kitchen or plant trees or something.

Your departure was their genuine loss, Paco, but good on you to have left that pit of fear-fueled zeal and zeal-fueled fear.
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Thad

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2011, 12:36:07 PM »

Those people worship God like He was a moron.

Argh, yes; I think that's a very good criticism of fundamentalists.

I think it was Carlin who brought that point up while criticizing the notion that AIDS is a punishment from God.  "So God wanted to punish homsexuals and the sexually promiscuous, but he fucked up and accidentally got a bunch of innocent people who just needed blood transfusions, too?"
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Zaratustra

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2011, 12:56:23 PM »

aragog obviously cut out the god connection there

I don't think I've ever had gut feelings regarding spirituality BUT THEN AGAIN one shouldn't act on one's gut feelings so that's a dead end

Pacobird

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2011, 01:29:03 PM »

Having a team of youths pray 24 hours a day, in shifts... that's... that's inconceivable.

I didn't think it was really about direct intercession with Jesus, personally.  I thought (and still think it was like this for us in practice even if it wasn't the purpose) it was more a tangible, contextual expression of "I care about you because you're you, and I want to spend this time doing what I can to ensure you are blessed".  To not understand why this is a powerful thing for one teenager to express to another is to forget what it was to be a teenager.

Of course, as it turns out it IS about round-the-clock direct intercession with Jesus, which is the elephant in this story's little room.


(I find the Book of Mormon's (the show) take that religion can be a powerful positive force if taken metaphorically really attractive, but the brilliance of the show is that it communicates this while also noting that to view religion metaphorically is to miss the entire point of religion)
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Zaratustra

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2011, 01:33:04 PM »

In other words, you believed a group of teenagers could express unmotivated, unambiguous empathy about another teenager. Hell, even adults have a problem with that.

François

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2011, 01:48:40 PM »

But even then, that just puts the absurdity of it into light. All those good intentions, that wonderful passion of a youth who wants good things to happen to the people around him, channeled into sitting in a room, at night, unbeknownst to the beneficiary until after the fact. A light, under a bushel.

And I'm not even talking about the possibility that the demon-seeing kid, if he wasn't making it up, might have been actually hallucinating for some physiological reason, either a pre-existing medical condition, or lack of food or sleep. I'm not going to pretend I know if that's the case here, but I wouldn't be surprised if similar organizations perhaps encouraged kids to fast.
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François

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2011, 02:22:09 PM »

Or what I'm really trying to say is, send those kids to pick up trash in a local park, and see how you like the ratio of kids who tell you how much deeper their connection to their everyday environment is and how proud they are of their part in the glory of creation, versus frenzied demon sightings.

And then buy 'em some ice cream.
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Disposable Ninja

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2011, 08:00:28 PM »

Ah. That's a form of Atheism that you rarely hear about but no doubt exists in massive quantities: the simple, irrefutable lack of faith. It's not a feeling based on logic, or reason, or a smug sense of superiority. You just don't have it. I'm like that, too. I like to refer to it as "Apathetic Atheism"; I simply do not give a shit. I don't have any particular reason, and I'm okay with that.

It feels nice, really.
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Royal☭

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2011, 07:54:14 AM »

The thing about the demon story is that sometimes people, whether adult or kid, can have a terrifying ability to simply make shit up and deliver with the conviction of the true believer. The kid describing demons in terms of the popular, mass-media concept of demons and spiritual terror rather anything described in the bible or outside the comprehension of man (remember, if you can recognize it as a Demon, it's probably not a demon) suggests that the image of the demon was more internal. Some people have a great ability to act manic and terrified, some kind of internal, finely honed skill to bullshit that they may or may not even be aware of.

Or the kid was just influenced by others to try and scare the spiritual shit out of your group.


What really gets me, though, is the 24-hour prayer-a-thon. Those things always read as the Businessman's Idea of salvation. And considering that most churches are usually run as corporations by committees of businessmen does little to dissuade that idea. It seems so simple: You achieve salvation by prayer and a connection to god? Well we've got people praying Round The Clock for your salvation, it's all taken care of. And they don't reveal this until the end, so they can take credit for any good feelings or spiritual satisfaction you may have felt after the entire retreat was done.  To me it feels less like a good, caring thing to do and more like a crass manipulation of people's spiritual needs. The McDonald's of spirit, so to speak.

Brentai

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2011, 10:24:56 AM »

What stands out to me in this whole deal is how wonderfully special your parents must be to allow you to grow up all the way to your teens able to wonder at your own pure spiritual connection to the world without all the usual trash and noise distorting it.  Give them a big hug for me.

Personally my hotline to God got snipped early which is probably a good thing in the long run, but it kind of leaves you in a lonely place.  You have to come up with your own concept of how the universe works and how you fit into it and when you do, absolutely fucking nobody wants to hear it or help refine it; you're either heretical for thinking something different or stupid for believing in anything at all.  Maybe I'll just take up Xenu worship and be done with it.
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Büge

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2011, 11:01:38 AM »

I dunno, Brentai. Are you rich enough to afford it?
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Friday

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2011, 01:47:31 PM »

Quote
You have to come up with your own concept of how the universe works and how you fit into it and when you do, absolutely fucking nobody wants to hear it or help refine it; you're either heretical for thinking something different or stupid for believing in anything at all.

Thanks. I was having a hard time putting this as effectively as you did to my family and friends.
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Pacobird

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2011, 05:19:46 PM »

What stands out to me in this whole deal is how wonderfully special your parents must be to allow you to grow up all the way to your teens able to wonder at your own pure spiritual connection to the world without all the usual trash and noise distorting it.  Give them a big hug for me.

I love my folks (even if they are aghast at my apostasy) but the thing with being a Catholic is that there are SO GODDAMN MANY ideas and theories in the Tent that they've more or less given up on prosecuting any sort of orthodoxy in the flock, which is why you see all these surveys of loud/proud pro-choice American Catholics, or how the Italian people seem to have had a really hard time applying themselves to pretty much anything since Marcus Aurelius.

It was sort of a later reflection of mine on Catholicism in particular: it's great that organized churches like the Catholics and the Mormons can change and improve themselves in the interest of making the world a little bit better and they deserve some credit for actually sometimes succeeding in doing this, but religion purports to be the Word of God and the Word of God ought to actually be About Something and not simply a reflection of ever-changing social and cultural mores. BUT WHATEVER
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Thad

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2011, 07:44:19 PM »

Eh, a lot of that stuff's fairly universal, though.  The whole "no killing" thing is as valid now as it was then (even if it's interpreted about as loosely).
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François

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2011, 08:00:54 PM »

I'm all for shedding dogma. Christianity is about being rad to one another; if the pope starts bugging people about what orbits what, or having opinions about who's the real king of France, or bitching about condoms, then he's just losing sight of what's important.
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Royal☭

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2011, 08:03:46 PM »

ChristianityLife is about being rad to one another

-1 Creator Deity

patito

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2011, 08:32:07 PM »

You're not being very rad there constantine.
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Thad

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Re: This Is a Thing
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2011, 09:10:08 PM »

Adding:

It was sort of a later reflection of mine on Catholicism in particular: it's great that organized churches like the Catholics and the Mormons can change and improve themselves in the interest of making the world a little bit better and they deserve some credit for actually sometimes succeeding in doing this, but religion purports to be the Word of God and the Word of God ought to actually be About Something and not simply a reflection of ever-changing social and cultural mores. BUT WHATEVER

My girlfriend was raised Mormon and this is precisely the reason she left the church: sooner or later, she had to ask the question of why it wouldn't allow black people in until the 1970's, and there are really only two possible answers to that question: either (1) bullshit or (2) an acknowledgement of 150 years of institutionalized racism.

(Apparently the priests she asked the question tended to go with #1, while the ones her brother asked went with #2.  Neither one of them is religious anymore.)
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