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[Shinra]

The thing is, guy-on-guy action is, in most parts of the U.S. anyway, largely treated like rape whether it's consensual or not.

This hasn't been true since... 2002?

probably, yes. however, you also do not hear people saying that someone was asking to be robbed, walking around dressed like that.

Actually, you do. Not so much for clothing specifically these days, but certainly for having smartphones out in the wrong neighborhood. It doesn't get publicized as much but the sentiment is definitely there.

Yeah, it seems a little crazy to me that one crime is somehow more abhorrent than others. And let's not forget that people have actually said the phrase "justifiable homicide" with 100% sincerity before. If that's not 'He was asking for it', I don't know what is.

For a man to be of any use to a "biting beaver" he has to have - not to put too fine a point on it - a hard-on. Or something that can pass for one (unless we're talking strap-ons and sodomy or something... but that's a pretty damned small number of incidents).

Arousal is not now, nor has it ever been a sign of consent. If it was a sign of consent there would be rapists out there introducing foreplay into their rapes to get around the law on technicality.

[Norondor]

probably, yes. however, you also do not hear people saying that someone was asking to be robbed, walking around dressed like that.

Actually, you do. Not so much for clothing specifically these days, but certainly for having smartphones out in the wrong neighborhood. It doesn't get publicized as much but the sentiment is definitely there.

for evil god's sake, i keep forgetting that even with you guys i need to slow it all the way down and use small words on issues like this.

yes, people do say things like that -- my sister, when she lived in San Francisco, used to hide her engagement ring when she was near the tenderloin -- but you do not get judges throwing out violent theft cases because the victim was carrying cash, you fucking idiots.

[Norondor]

Yeah, it seems a little crazy to me that one crime is somehow more abhorrent than others. And let's not forget that people have actually said the phrase "justifiable homicide" with 100% sincerity before. If that's not 'He was asking for it', I don't know what is.

"p. sure conspiracy to commit murder is as bad as intellectual property crime guys"

[Rico]

Yeah, it seems a little crazy to me that one crime is somehow more abhorrent than others.

Uh, for robbery v. rape one is a crime against property and one of them is a crime against a person ...

[Mongrel]

Arousal is not now, nor has it ever been a sign of consent. If it was a sign of consent there would be rapists out there introducing foreplay into their rapes to get around the law on technicality.

See now this is actually a very good point.

[Kayin]

I'm always a 'keep your god damned hands off comedy' sort of guy, but there is certainly a lot of nuance to this. When you're in public space, or someone else's space, you have a lot of reason to to be polite and tactful. When you create your own space, (like Penny Arcade), is it appropriate to get offended about a single rape related comic in a series that has a (as often pointed out) literal rapist? Was the comic 'wrong'? No, the comic wasn't wrong and Mike and Jerry did nothing wrong (yet), but the outrage was probably a net good. Awareness needs to be brought to issues and you don't bring awareness to issues by going "Haha, that was funny guys, but remember, real people get raped and real people are rape survivors". The controversy got people to read and argue things.

Mike and Jerry to an extent are victims (however small) of social injustice too. While comedy naturally tries to make fun of everything, social injustice is always going to cause backlashes against it. In this cause, feminists HAVE to get upset about things and they HAVE to push. Again, you don't tip toe quality toward equality. By necessity 'they' have to overreach and the social mechanism for this is the loudest fringe groups that get the outrage started.

The real problem with social injustice with things like rape, sexism and racism is a lack of proper awareness. For example, I really liked Rapelay. That game was great. When the controversy broke out with it, I had to ask my self... Is this game sexist? Is it bad? Is it wrong to like it? My thinking on the matter is yes, it's sexist. But that's not necessarily bad. Most FPSs are sociopathic, but that's also okay. It's also not bad for me to like rapelay because I KNOW WHAT IT IS. I can call a spade a spade. It's a horribly sexist game and thats WHY it's fun. The problem is with issues like sexism or rape, awareness is low. Pretty much everyone can play a violent video game and go "Yes. This isn't reality". Hell, I'd say most people could, if it was their bag, play a game like rapelay without any issues. It's so blatently sexist that it's easy to brush off. But "most people" is not a good answer. It needs to be much closer to "all" people and when issues are more subtle, it draws closer toward 'almost no people and then we get things like unintentional sexism in games and other situations and the whole thing is a mess and it sucks for everyone involved. Of course, women suffer by faaaaar the most, but still, everyone is still somewhat victimized. I wanna be able to play games like rapelay and throw around gendered insults in appropriate spaces without being hassled and for that, people have to see what the hell is wrong with society.

So yeah, part of me hates seeing comedy shamed, but this stuff has to happen and honestly, if anything is going to generate the most awareness with the least amount of harm the the original authors, it's going to be Penny Arcade. The sooner we get everyone on the same level, the sooner we can get back to being vile without having to be nagged all the time.

[Shinra]

Mike and Jerry to an extent are victims (however small) of social injustice too. While comedy naturally tries to make fun of everything, social injustice is always going to cause backlashes against it. In this cause, feminists HAVE to get upset about things and they HAVE to push. Again, you don't tip toe quality toward equality. By necessity 'they' have to overreach and the social mechanism for this is the loudest fringe groups that get the outrage started.

Feminists aren't about equality. They have not been about equality for more than a decade.

If they were about equality we would see women pushing to see female on male rape taken seriously, female on male domestic abuse taken seriously, male mortality in the workplace taken seriously (men are 94% more likely to die on the job) disparity in divorce laws taken seriously, disparity in child custody laws taken seriously... I could go on. But the truth is when these items do come up in a legal context, rather than support improved equality for both sexes, feminism rallies in favor of women, which, you know, should be implied by their name.

Since we're talking about narratives and context, why is it that a movement which is devoted to the gender superiority of women still taken seriously today? Because the so-called 'men's rights' movement is taken about as seriously as white supremacy.

[Rico]

for evil god's sake, i keep forgetting that even with you guys i need to slow it all the way down and use small words on issues like this.

yes, people do say things like that -- my sister, when she lived in San Francisco, used to hide her engagement ring when she was near the tenderloin -- but you do not get judges throwing out violent theft cases because the victim was carrying cash, you fucking idiots.

I'm sorry you got angry that I responded to what you actually wrote?

[Kayin]

Feminists aren't about equality. They have not been about equality for more than a decade.

That's a pretty big generalization of a large group of people from different organizations with different purposes and goals and view points! Hey, look, there are PLENTY of feminists that piss me off. Either for being too extreme or just having downright BAD arguments. But to group them up as a singular, perfectly organized, crazed movement like that? Nooooot really all that reasonable.

What should women be doing in the magical land of Shinra? Serious question, where is the future of gender issues and equality to you?

[Mongrel]

Mike and Jerry to an extent are victims (however small) of social injustice too. While comedy naturally tries to make fun of everything, social injustice is always going to cause backlashes against it. In this cause, feminists HAVE to get upset about things and they HAVE to push. Again, you don't tip toe quality toward equality. By necessity 'they' have to overreach and the social mechanism for this is the loudest fringe groups that get the outrage started.

Feminists aren't about equality. They have not been about equality for more than a decade.

If they were about equality we would see women pushing to see female on male rape taken seriously, female on male domestic abuse taken seriously, male mortality in the workplace taken seriously (men are 94% more likely to die on the job) disparity in divorce laws taken seriously, disparity in child custody laws taken seriously... I could go on. But the truth is when these items do come up in a legal context, rather than support improved equality for both sexes, feminism rallies in favor of women, which, you know, should be implied by their name.

Since we're talking about narratives and context, why is it that a movement which is devoted to the gender superiority of women still taken seriously today? Because the so-called 'men's rights' movement is taken about as seriously as white supremacy.

Men do not dominate society as they once did, but it seems absurd to suggest that men do not still have a significant advantage in just about every aspect of life and work.

Smaller issues like workplace mortality and child custody after divorce are important, but they are dwarfed by things like equality of pay, equality of representation, or equality of opportunity.

[Rico]

Part of this particular issue could be that because so many of the original feminist movements' points have already been absorbed into our culture that—while there are certainly still reasonable strides to be made—the reasonable feminist is now just a regular woman, leaving the term open for the crazier sect.

[Kayin]

So two thing here. Again, you never build awareness by being calm, reasonable and rational. I hate this this little detail of social reality with a passion, but there isn't much you can do it about it. Secondly, a lot of people fighting for social justice and awareness don't even properly understand the issue either. Now, don't misunderstand me. These people are wrong. When I see people write articles highlighting impractical female armor and warped anatomy, while having no concept of art direction or tone or how art frequently exaggerates and fudges anatomy, I roll my eyes. We can and should hold people personally accountable for their dumb opinions. But on the macro scale, these are just signs of dissatisfaction. People are pushing -- sometimes blindly -- somethings wrongly -- but their pushing and, honestly they have to push. What happens then is HOPEFULLY by discussing, and arguing and all that, we end up a better culture and all the bad, failed, over the top ideas get left with the most extreme groups that get ignored.

I mean, not that any of this works perfecty -- it's a fucking dumb social force -- but it seems to generally lead to some progress.

[Classic]

Warning - while you were typing 5 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Well fuck, it looks like someone else said everything I wanted to say but with less words.

Mike and Jerry to an extent are victims (however small) of social injustice too. While comedy naturally tries to make fun of everything, social injustice is always going to cause backlashes against it. In this cause, feminists HAVE to get upset about things and they HAVE to push. Again, you don't tip toe quality toward equality. By necessity 'they' have to overreach and the social mechanism for this is the loudest fringe groups that get the outrage started.

Feminists aren't about equality. They have not been about equality for more than a decade.

If they were about equality we would see women pushing to see female on male rape taken seriously, female on male domestic abuse taken seriously, male mortality in the workplace taken seriously (men are 94% more likely to die on the job) disparity in divorce laws taken seriously, disparity in child custody laws taken seriously... I could go on. But the truth is when these items do come up in a legal context, rather than support improved equality for both sexes, feminism rallies in favor of women, which, you know, should be implied by their name.

Since we're talking about narratives and context, why is it that a movement which is devoted to the gender superiority of women still taken seriously today? Because the so-called 'men's rights' movement is taken about as seriously as white supremacy.

Men do not dominate society as they once did, but it seems absurd to suggest that men do not still have a significant advantage in just about every aspect of life and work.

Smaller issues like workplace mortality and child custody after divorce are important, but they are dwarfed by things like equality of pay, equality of representation, or equality of opportunity.

Original Post FollowsShinra?
Do you mean to imply that all of the research done on modern income disparity is the result of cooked books?
That the glass ceiling no longer exists because there are grrl power shaped holes in it?

That there are ungiven concessions to equality toward men, the "more privileged" gender, doesn't mean someone pushing for gender equality should push for those first. You're spewing stuff that's dangerously close to anti-feminist reactionary hogwash.

It might not be fair, but positive stereotypes for women seem few when numbered against misogynist tropes and the inequalities they foster.

I can't speak towards male mortality in the workplace or any of the other gender-lines inequalities you mention, but in my experience, people generally support father's rights. There is a consistent and clear effort to show that a father's contribution to his children's welfare isn't just alimony and it seems successful.

But honestly, divorce arbitration is depressing as fuck. So I don't have any good rigor for that assertion.

[Catloaf]

Warning - while you were typing 4 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
FUCK! Anyway....

Feminists aren't about equality. They have not been about equality for more than a decade.

If they were about equality we would see women pushing to see female on male rape taken seriously, female on male domestic abuse taken seriously, male mortality in the workplace taken seriously (men are 94% more likely to die on the job) disparity in divorce laws taken seriously, disparity in child custody laws taken seriously... I could go on. But the truth is when these items do come up in a legal context, rather than support improved equality for both sexes, feminism rallies in favor of women, which, you know, should be implied by their name.

Since we're talking about narratives and context, why is it that a movement which is devoted to the gender superiority of women still taken seriously today? Because the so-called 'men's rights' movement is taken about as seriously as white supremacy.

No.  No.  No.  And no.  You wanna know why feminists don't care about that shit?  Because that is bullshit "But I'm suffering too!" nonsense that tries to deny that there is a systematic privilege that men hold over women in society.  Yes, there are inequalities on both sides, but guess who winds up with the short end of the stick after everything is tallied up?  Your argument is like saying that crusading against racism should include making it okay for white people to call black people "niggers."

[Norondor]

for evil god's sake, i keep forgetting that even with you guys i need to slow it all the way down and use small words on issues like this.

yes, people do say things like that -- my sister, when she lived in San Francisco, used to hide her engagement ring when she was near the tenderloin -- but you do not get judges throwing out violent theft cases because the victim was carrying cash, you fucking idiots.

I'm sorry you got angry that I responded to what you actually wrote?

i'm not really that angry, rico, except with myself.

i recognize that the default assumption, in society, the boards, and the minds of everyone except apparently me and Constantine, which is actually the big deal here and not that penny arcade made another joke that falls flat on its face as part of its continual precipitous decline into uncomfortable white male gamer garbage, is that rape is automatically downplayed, trivialized, justified or hemmed and hawed over instead of being seen as an honest-to-satan societal plague on the order of the crack epidemic or nazism.

when i said "i have to remember to use baby language" it's because you are all carriers of a memetic disease that is all but unchecked in the western world, and if i don't you won't hear anything i'm trying to impart to you. it is a disease that makes you actually ask, apparently entirely seriously, if blaming the victim makes sense. it makes people state that there's no reason to be offended by humor of any kind -- a good post i didn't quote above pointed out that this is intensely hypocritical, stating that humor should be protected as sacrosanct while denying the responsibility of the artist to remember the effect their works have on other people. it causes carriers to decry the value of the continued struggle for gender equality -- not that this should come as a surprise, really -- and trot out, for the trillionth fucking time, the old saws that rape happens to men too u guise and really how is rape worse than other crimes?? in apparent willful ignorance of the fact that it's worse because it's a crime that's viewed as justified, unworthy of prosecution, or not really any worse than, say, a really bad experience with customer service.

i'm angry with myself because i'm trying to help you, i really am. it's just not always easy to remember how, or why.

[Mongrel]

CATLOAF ALARM

[Shinra]

Part of this particular issue could be that because so many of the original feminist movements' points have already been absorbed into our culture that—while there are certainly still reasonable strides to be made—the reasonable feminist is now just a regular woman, leaving the term open for the crazier sect.

This is basically my point. What we're left with as a 'feminist movement' now is literally gender supremacists. Most women believe in equal pay for equal work, or that they are just as capable of doing a job as a man, etc, and want the same opportunities and quality of work that men receive. All (or almost all) women strive for that goal. But I think if you sit the average woman down next to the kind of person who says that 'every man is directly or indirectly supporting the act of rape against women' they are going to be naturally repulsed.

The rape culture argument feels to me like a good point made by a klan member, which completely makes it lose credibility and makes me question the actual motives of the person making the point in the first place. Considering that almost all of the commotion we saw about the rape culture issues in regards to the dickwolves incident was coming out of the field of radical, militant feminism, the only thing I took away from this was that a group of people were trying to draw attention to their now-fringe movement, and that this group of people was trying to control what we can and cannot say, and what we can and cannot joke about in private, free space.

Shinra?
Do you mean to imply that all of the research done on modern income disparity is the result of cooked books?
That the glass ceiling no longer exists because there are grrl power shaped holes in it?

That is not even close to what I said. There is absolutely inequality between the genders. But there is a line between seeking equality and seeking superiority. It is my belief that feminism, as a movement, has become about seeking superiority. Feminism does not seek to eradicate notions like the disposable male or the idea that domestic violence against men by women - an act far more common than you would think - is just as serious and just as unacceptable.

doesn't mean someone pushing for gender equality should push for those first.

The issue is that when these things do come up, feminists tend to error on the side of women rather than on the side of equality, which makes their entire argument become, again, less about equality and more about superiority.

No.  No.  No.  And no.  You wanna know why feminists don't care about that shit?  Because that is bullshit "But I'm suffering too!" nonsense that tries to deny that there is a systematic privilege that men hold over women in society.  Yes, there are inequalities on both sides, but guess who winds up with the short end of the stick after everything is tallied up?  Your argument is like saying that crusading against racism should include making it okay for white people to call black people "niggers."

Women have the short end of the stick professionally, men have the short end of the stick domestically. And while women having the short end of the stick is actually illegal and can be pursued in a court setting as such, men having the short end of the stick domestically is actively supported by state and federal laws and any movement to change that situation is rallied against by the feminist movement, and laughed down as fringe by the media.

My argument is like saying that crusading against gender inequality is bullshit when you are actually crusading for it when it ends up going a direction you don't like.

The biggest problem of all is that men are incapable of crusading for themselves because of shit like this:

If they were about equality we would see women pushing to see female on male rape taken seriously, female on male domestic abuse taken seriously, male mortality in the workplace taken seriously (men are 94% more likely to die on the job) disparity in divorce laws taken seriously, disparity in child custody laws taken seriously... I could go on. But the truth is when these items do come up in a legal context, rather than support improved equality for both sexes, feminism rallies in favor of women, which, you know, should be implied by their name.

No.  No.  No.  And no.  You wanna know why feminists don't care about that shit?  Because that is bullshit "But I'm suffering too!" nonsense that tries to deny that there is a systematic privilege that men hold over women in society.

catloaf: Just to put a finer point on this, you are literally making the argument that a man's concerns don't matter because a woman's concerns should come first.

Make sure you don't speak while she eats her dinner. She needs concentration to digest after you've cooked a fine meal for her.

[Mongrel]

it's worse because it's a crime that's viewed as justified, unworthy of prosecution, or not really any worse than, say, a really bad experience with customer service.

That's not incorrect, but that's an issue with punishment rather than the act itself. I do think rape is an incredibly serious crime, but moreso because it involves a violation that is more deeply personal than just about anything else.

Also, I am not justfiying anything. I am just wading into a discussion and trying to raise questions. Not to troll, but to honesly see where the discussion goes.

[Mongrel]

men have the short end of the stick domestically

I think a lot of us would ask you to back up that claim.

And we're not just talking "Who gets custody in the case of a divorce" or "Who gets locked up when the cops are called for a domestic disturbance?" (and lord knows I've been a firsthand witness to enough of those calls to damn well know that the answer is definitely NOT "it's always the guy who gets it").

The day-to-day behaviousr of functional or borderline domestic relationships matter just as much as those relationships that have kablooeyed all over the justice system.

[Friday]

k, gonna lock this thread before this gets any worse.