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Author Topic: Racist Moments  (Read 4534 times)

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Misha

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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2012, 06:08:52 PM »

I never wanted to talk about statistical racial differences, I just linked that to illustrate what I read. I think reading it might have influenced how I see random black people for the worse when meeting them even though the statistics don't actually usefully tell me any one person's intellect. I started talking about it when other people started talking about it.
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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2012, 06:15:35 PM »

To whatever mod eventually locks this abortion of a thread: Please save it I want to use it in future sociology classes.
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Brentai

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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2012, 06:26:28 PM »

I think reading it might have influenced how I see random black people for the worse when meeting them even though the statistics don't actually usefully tell me any one person's intellect.

Stuff like this.

Assume that everything posted in the thread is this.  Trust me, it won't be hard to spot when someone starts actually promoting White Power or whatever.
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Mongrel

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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2012, 06:57:31 PM »

I've actually seen a rise in the sort of claims that that article Misha links to makes.

Some of it, like that PDF links to race, others just link socioeconomic status with genetics.

The real problem is not whether or not those studies are true, the problem is that segment of the "wealthy people" circle on a venn diagram that overlaps with the "narcissists", "sociopaths", or "self-satisfied assholes" circles are going to start a): socially and morally justifying bad behaviour to themselves and others with these studies and b): using these things to justify policies that entrench divisions/inequality.

If that article was true - and that is by no means proved at all* - then the correct response is a detailed investigation of why. But that doesn't happen. The writers of these kinds of things repeatedly say "Well, the facts prove this you're all just denying it and it is what it is, black people/the poor are just stupid/lazy. Full Stop. Pregnant pause. I'llletyoudrawyourownconclusions."  The science might be good, or it might not, but the way it's presented is in such a way as to confirm a bias. But it's VERY subtle.

But it just goes to show: These are very clever people doing these studies, but it doesn't make them moral or conscientious. 

*In fact if you DO read the Wiki article as Misha suggests (and I've been reading up a lot on this lately, because frankly all the upper middle class twits arguing for this stuff is really starting to bug and worry me, no Misha that statement does not refer to you), it pretty plainly states that neither side in the hereditary/environmental argument has anything approaching really firm proof and that there's good evidence for both sides. The problem is that these guys are actually stating "In the absence of proof otherwise, we must be right", but again, these are smart motherfuckers, so they word it in such a way as to avoid anything you can nail down as obvious racism.
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Classic

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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2012, 08:28:04 PM »

OK... So...

Regression to the mean... Children born to wealthy, high IQ black parents have IQ on average 2 to 4 points lower than those born to poor, low IQ white parents.
I don't think I know what this means. I'm not sure it says anything other than IQ doesn't conform to Mandelian genetics. I also don't know why you'd try to compare regressions moving in different directions toward possibly different means, that may have incorporated test data proven to be biased. I just don't know why you'd use that data as useful for a comparison.

I'm also having a lot of trouble working up the will to read an article that invokes a near neighbor of phrenology. So... maybe I just have a lot of problems.
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Büge

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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2012, 08:32:07 PM »

 :popcorn:
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Doom

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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2012, 08:36:47 PM »

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Brentai

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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2012, 08:44:49 PM »

I was going to say that the results are liable to be skewed if done in the U.S. due to a number of factors (the most likely and offensive being that the progenitors of the race that wound up over here weren't selected for their intellectual pursuits) but it turns out that particular report used data straight from South Africa.

Which okay you can argue that South Africa is pretty skewed too but still, your comic isn't that relevant.
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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2012, 08:46:32 PM »

Oh, speaking of "proper" English, at a recent science fair judging I had to tell an elementary school student that although what she wrote made sense and in some ways, made more sense than "proper" English, she'd get docked points for it.

She had a good science report, actually.
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Thad

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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2012, 09:30:14 PM »

Seriously read it. The problem with going to wikipedia or whatever and reading about how controversial these authors are is that you literally cannot say "maybe there's a chance this group has lower iq genetically, we should look into it" in academia without being reviled as a racist or losing your job (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers).

eeeeyeah but that's a case of a guy saying maybe the reason there aren't so many women in science and math is because women are just naturally not as good at science and math.

Nobody questions that smart parents tend to have smart children

Sure they do.

Populations breed toward the norm.  The children of capable parents are likely to have more opportunities than average, but that doesn't necessarily speak to an innate cognitive ability.

Basically, east asians on average are smarter than europeans, who are smarter than africans. IQ tests consistently show these results, across multiple different kinds of tests (including tests deliberately trying as hard as they can to be non-cultural)

Trying not to be non-culturally-biased isn't the same thing as succeeding, though.

When I see a test looking at IQ as the best way of determining intelligence, I get suspicious.

When I see a statistical analysis that looks at the mean instead of the median, that makes me suspicious too.

Other genetic things such as skull capacity and nearsightedness which have documented correlations with IQ also vary along the same lines between these groups, with the most incidence of myopia and highest cranial capacity in east asians, and lowest in africans.

...skull size?  We're bordering on phrenology here.

Nearsightedness is a bit easier to swallow -- people who spend an inordinate amount of time reading are more likely to be nearsighted.  And people who are farsighted, by definition, have a harder time reading books.

In studies of adopted children (adopted into white middle class homes), children with 2 black biological parents have an average IQ which is lower than those with 1, which is lower than children with 2 white biological parents, despite being raised in good as opposed to a bad environment. Similarly, east asian adopted children have average IQs significantly higher than the average for their white parents. This doesn't really make sense if race genetics play no part in IQ.

It does if there are different social stigmas faced by African-Americans than Asians.  Peers, teachers, etc.

I'm not trying to pile on or be flippant or make anybody uncomfortable anything.  But I really do think it's far more reasonable to ask about the tests and statistical analysis than to conclude that there is an actual 45-point cognitive difference in Asians and Africans.



EDIT TO ADD: It'll probably seem less like I'm being holier-than-thou if I actually contribute to the original purpose of the thread and say that yeah, course I've got the occasional racist moments too.  Like most stressful things in my life, they occur mostly in traffic.

If I see a low-rider and hear it blasting bass, I assume African-American or Latino driver, probably young, probably native English speaker.
If I see a pickup full of tools, ESPECIALLY one towing a trailer full of landscaping equipment, I assume Latino, older, probably limited English.
In both cases I tend to assume the person is a bad driver.  I am likely to give the latter more benefit of the doubt -- which plays into a different set of biases.
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Malikial

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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2012, 10:26:19 PM »

My favorite thing that makes me laugh but also makes me think 'fucking white people' is when people pronounce common words in other languages really really wrong, usually spanish because it's the most common. Example, when people say tor till uh. I die laughing instead of helping them say it right.
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Joxam

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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2012, 10:28:13 PM »

My favorite is when they pronounce it 'Soft taco shell'.
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Mongrel

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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2012, 11:39:37 PM »

I thought of another racist moment I had! A long while back, I didn't know the insult "porch monkey" referred specifically to black folks. I thought it just meant any sort of old "ig'nant suthern folk" of the type to sit on porches and yell at people all day. Now fortunately I didn't say it to anyone's face, but this old black lady at the bank pissed me off by being all bullheaded about something, so when I came out I was all pissed off and muttered "Goddamned porch monkey!" afterwards.

Later when I found out it just referred to black folks, I was pretty mortified.

------------

Other than that, I am very guilty of perpetuating the appalling Toronto tradition of "Everyone makes bad jokes about stereotypes in a faux-ignorant way at work" (basically when in a place with four or five ethnic groups represented, people will just start joking about living up to the stereotype of their own group, but also encourage and add to each others' jokes).

In my experience, people in this town tend to be very forthright if they think you've gone over a line and it's been pretty constant in most casual groups I've seen and every workplace I've been in (except for the medical company, but that was only three people). But I'm sure ideally we should not be doing this because there's I'm sure there's SOME people who don't speak up.

It's kind of a bad habit that simultaneously divides and unites. It divides because it's inherently racist, even though we're all lampooning it as we do it. But it unites because we all have the same damn bad habit.

It's basically the Russel Peters model of multicultural cooperation.
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Kara99

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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2012, 11:56:49 PM »

My favorite thing that makes me laugh but also makes me think 'fucking white people' is when people pronounce common words in other languages really really wrong, usually spanish because it's the most common.

We had an inmate one time with the last name of "Faget."  The sargent called him over to the desk one time by saying, "Hey Faggot, come here."  The inmate said, "It's pronounced Fah-jay.  It's French."  And the sgt said, "Well this is America, and in America we pronounce it faggot."

On a non-racist yet stereotypical note, it always amuses me to see the look of shock on people's faces when I tell them I don't like Glee.  Being a transgender bisexual, and thus half the GLBT acronym, everyone assumes it has to be my most favoritest show EVAR.
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-The girl formerly known as AlexChiu (the #finalfight regular, not the madman).

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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2012, 12:06:20 AM »

Glee - Friday (Rebecca Black Cover)
those glee kids can sometimes make shit okay
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Kara99

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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2012, 12:14:11 AM »

Yeah, I've heard that version.  But Colbert wins at Friday forever.

Friday Covered by Stephen Colbert

I tried to watch 2 episodes and I thought it was completely uninteresting.  I've been told the show is pretty hit or miss, so maybe I caught the wrong 2 episodes.  Whatever, I don't feel like I'm missing anything.
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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2012, 03:40:22 AM »

white people all look the same to me
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Kfroog

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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2012, 03:41:57 AM »

jews look like white people to me
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Classic

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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2012, 03:46:52 AM »

white people all look the same to me
Sometimes there's differences in hair color that are uncommon outside of a few special sets of white people.
Sometimes I am also close enough to tell how wavy hair is.

Other than that, it's this, but for everyone. All the time.
Including me.
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Cthulhu-chan

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Re: Racist Moments
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2012, 06:31:44 AM »

You're all ugly sacks of meat and gristle from where I'm standing.

When I was in Japan, I can say that all the guys looked largely alike, and the ladies really looked similar.  Unless either were old.  Then they ALL looked alike.
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