Topic: Racist Moments (Read 4539 times)

Niku · « **Reply #20 on:** February 05, 2012, 04:26:14 PM »

i told black jokes once and there was a black family sitting nearby

Lottel · « **Reply #21 on:** February 05, 2012, 04:27:03 PM »

Did they laugh?

Disposable Ninja · « **Reply #22 on:** February 05, 2012, 04:28:41 PM »

Homophobic moment: I was talking to a gay guy and trying to get him admitting that he could at least enjoy the company of naked ladies. To be fair to myself, I think everybody has at least a little bi-curiosity in them, even gay people. I don't... I don't quite think I got that point across, though.

Brentai · « **Reply #23 on:** February 05, 2012, 04:41:33 PM »

ime gay people enjoy naked ladies just fine. They just don't want to be crawled on by them.

Joxam · « **Reply #24 on:** February 05, 2012, 04:46:56 PM »

Honestly I don't have a problem with what most of you are saying in here because everyone is guilty off slip ups at times. However, this thread being about "oops I totally thought her nose was weird and she happened to be Jewish" doesn't seem to be on the same wavelength of shinra saying, "its not that I don't like talking to black people, just uneducated, underprivileged black people."

Joxam · « **Reply #25 on:** February 05, 2012, 04:50:13 PM »

My point is what yu don't like is how they speak, it has nothing to do with their privilege or education.

Kashan · « **Reply #26 on:** February 05, 2012, 04:53:36 PM »

When I was younger my group of friends included a Jewish kid that once or twice used the word "Jewed" around us as a joke. We started to adopt this and really overused it in the stupid racist way that young white teenage boys seem so keen to. Eventually he asked us to stop because it was racist, and we were all pretty confused because we thought we were just having good fun. In hind sight I'm pretty embarrassed about the whole thing.

Quote from: Misha on February 04, 2012, 07:02:28 PM

http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/Rushton-Jensen30years.pdf

This has changed my thinking about race and I don't know if it's for the better.

Well, a cursory look at the history of the two authors of that suggests that both are considered to have fairly extreme views within the field of psychology In that they're both basically pure hereditists when it comes to intelligence, and while I haven't read that or any of their other work, the summaries of their positions seems to me to be simply out of place with what is known about how environment affects brain development. On another note they really come off as Psychologists and not zoologist/anthropologists/geneticists. The human genome has so little diversity that it doesn't really make any sense to account for IQ test performance differences via genetics. At least not without some seriously strong direct genetic evidence.

Edit: Everyone in this thread comes off as incredibly White to me. Is that racist?

Brentai · « **Reply #27 on:** February 05, 2012, 04:57:38 PM »

Okay, well, how's this for one.

I'm honestly starting to feel that this isn't the kind of conversation we (caucasian males) can have honestly with any sort of minority around to hear it. Ever.

Shinra · « **Reply #28 on:** February 05, 2012, 04:58:02 PM »

Quote from: Joxam on February 05, 2012, 04:46:56 PM

Honestly I don't have a problem with what most of you are saying in here because everyone is guilty off slip ups at times. However, this thread being about "oops I totally thought her nose was weird and she happened to be Jewish" doesn't seem to be on the same wavelength of shinra saying, "its not that I don't like talking to black people, just uneducated, underprivileged black people."

That's not what I said. That's not even close to what I said.

What I said is that I tended to get pissed off calls at 11 at night. The ones that stuck out were the ones with distinct accents and slang. Those people happened to be black. Now when I hear someone speaking that way, my immediate reaction is to wince, because I've associated the black cultural dialect with shitty assholes calling me at 11 pm because they're surprised their phone gets shut off after six months of not paying their bill.

I didn't say black people were the only ones who gave me shitty calls, I didn't say they were uneducated or stupid, I said that I associate the black cultural dialect with shitty assholes because the shitty assholes that stick out the most in my mind are the ones who have a memorable accent or dialect.

But OK, you can derail the thread and shit all over me, that's cool too. You're a fucking prick.

Misha · « **Reply #29 on:** February 05, 2012, 05:23:00 PM »

Quote from: Kashan on February 05, 2012, 04:53:36 PM

When I was younger my group of friends included a Jewish kid that once or twice used the word "Jewed" around us as a joke. We started to adopt this and really overused it in the stupid racist way that young white teenage boys seem so keen to. Eventually he asked us to stop because it was racist, and we were all pretty confused because we thought we were just having good fun. In hind sight I'm pretty embarrassed about the whole thing.

Quote from: Misha on February 04, 2012, 07:02:28 PM
http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/Rushton-Jensen30years.pdf

This has changed my thinking about race and I don't know if it's for the better.

Well, a cursory look at the history of the two authors of that suggests that both are considered to have fairly extreme views within the field of psychology In that they're both basically pure hereditists when it comes to intelligence, and while I haven't read that or any of their other work, the summaries of their positions seems to me to be simply out of place with what is known about how environment affects brain development. On another note they really come off as Psychologists and not zoologist/anthropologists/geneticists. The human genome has so little diversity that it doesn't really make any sense to account for IQ test performance differences via genetics. At least not without some seriously strong direct genetic evidence.

Edit: Everyone in this thread comes off as incredibly White to me. Is that racist?

Seriously read it. The problem with going to wikipedia or whatever and reading about how controversial these authors are is that you literally cannot say "maybe there's a chance this group has lower iq genetically, we should look into it" in academia without being reviled as a racist or losing your job (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers). These men would be controversial regardless of the truth level of their statements.

Nobody questions that smart parents tend to have smart children, so there are obviously genetic components in intelligence, but anyone who says these might also correlate with race is instantly shunned. Study after study is described and referenced in the article I linked. It's not just the racist rantings of two old men.

In regards to them being pure hereditarian, that's just slander, as the article I linked to literally on the first page talks about heredetarianism being about part culture and part genetic.

Brentai · « **Reply #30 on:** February 05, 2012, 05:25:01 PM »

Assume I can't summon up the interest required to read all of that and owl it for me.

Joxam · « **Reply #31 on:** February 05, 2012, 05:43:50 PM »

Shinra I don't think you're a racist and I don't think what you were trying to say was racist. I'm sorry I let how you wrote what you said influence my opinion of what I knew you to mean. I will work on this in the future.

Misha · « **Reply #32 on:** February 05, 2012, 05:49:14 PM »

Basically, east asians on average are smarter than europeans, who are smarter than africans. IQ tests consistently show these results, across multiple different kinds of tests (including tests deliberately trying as hard as they can to be non-cultural) and in different parts of the world. Other genetic things such as skull capacity and nearsightedness which have documented correlations with IQ also vary along the same lines between these groups, with the most incidence of myopia and highest cranial capacity in east asians, and lowest in africans.

In studies of adopted children (adopted into white middle class homes), children with 2 black biological parents have an average IQ which is lower than those with 1, which is lower than children with 2 white biological parents, despite being raised in good as opposed to a bad environment. Similarly, east asian adopted children have average IQs significantly higher than the average for their white parents. This doesn't really make sense if race genetics play no part in IQ.

If you look at regression to the mean (ie when two smart people have a dumber child, the child being closer to the average) the magnitude of the regression falls in line with the different racial average IQs. Children born to wealthy, high IQ black parents have IQ on average 2 to 4 points lower than those born to poor, low IQ white parents.

Kashan · « **Reply #33 on:** February 05, 2012, 05:56:34 PM »

Quote from: Misha on February 05, 2012, 05:23:00 PM

Seriously read it. The problem with going to wikipedia or whatever and reading about how controversial these authors are is that you literally cannot say "maybe there's a chance this group has lower iq genetically, we should look into it" in academia without being reviled as a racist or losing your job (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers). These men would be controversial regardless of the truth level of their statements.

Nobody questions that smart parents tend to have smart children, so there are obviously genetic components in intelligence, but anyone who says these might also correlate with race is instantly shunned. Study after study is described and referenced in the article I linked. It's not just the racist rantings of two old men.

In regards to them being pure hereditarian, that's just slander, as the article I linked to literally on the first page talks about heredetarianism being about part culture and part genetic.

Well, the Smart Parents = smart kids things doesn't actually particularly support the idea that Intelligence is majority genetic as parents tend to pass on both their genetics and their culture. We can look to adoption for cases where this isn't true, though adoption tends to give only a very limited class variance due to the screening process in America. Here's an example from France however that provides some evidence that there's a strong link between intelligence and socio-economic background.

Quote

A study (1999) by Capron and Duyme of French children adopted between the ages of four and six examined the influence of socioeconomic status (SES). The children's IQs initially averaged 77, putting them near retardation. Most were abused or neglected as infants, then shunted from one foster home or institution to the next. Nine years later after adoption, when they were on average 14 years old, they retook the IQ tests, and all of them did better. The amount they improved was directly related to the adopting family's socioeconomic status. "Children adopted by farmers and laborers had average IQ scores of 85.5; those placed with middle-class families had average scores of 92. The average IQ scores of youngsters placed in well-to-do homes climbed more than 20 points, to 98."

There's also the simple fact that there's vastly more diversity in genetics within ethnic groups than there is between ethnic groups, so if intelligence was genetically as strongly tied to ethnicity as they're suggesting then that would make it a very unusual exception. Also Hereditarian is the term they use for their position in the paper. I'm not really sure that's lander.

Quote from: Brentai on February 05, 2012, 04:57:38 PM

Okay, well, how's this for one.

I'm honestly starting to feel that this isn't the kind of conversation we (caucasian males) can have honestly with any sort of minority around to hear it. Ever.

I think if your instincts are that you couldn't say something honestly around somebody of another race because you fear being shamed over it, then maybe it is something you really should be ashamed about. I think there's an astounding lack of empathy by white males about the situations that other groups in this country go through simply due to not being white males, even among those who hold relatively liberal views. I think a lot of people with racist beliefs are either inclined to pretend that they don't have those beliefs, that those beliefs aren't actually racist, or that they can't change their beliefs. Disappointingly few people seem inclined to acknowledge their perfectly human failings on this issue, much less to work correct them.

I'm also not sure whether saying that I think all that is the right thing to do here, because one of the big reasons I think so many white people have subtle (or not so subtle) racist beliefs/habits is because they are basically terrified and confused by the subject of race, and adding more guilt onto the pile might not help.

Disposable Ninja · « **Reply #34 on:** February 05, 2012, 05:56:52 PM »

oh yeah, there was this one time I yelled at friday for talking about women's issues in video games in a thread I started about... women's issues in video games.

I still feel like an ass for that one.

Also holy shit misha shut up. I thought this thread was about confessing that you've been a bigoted asshole in the past and that you want to be a better person than you were before, not about being a bigoted asshole.

Misha · « **Reply #35 on:** February 05, 2012, 05:58:38 PM »

lalalala scientific data is irrelevant I don't want to be A RACIST I'm not listening lalalalala

Kashan · « **Reply #36 on:** February 05, 2012, 06:03:20 PM »

Quote from: Misha on February 05, 2012, 05:49:14 PM

Basically, east asians on average are smarter than europeans, who are smarter than africans. IQ tests consistently show these results, across multiple different kinds of tests (including tests deliberately trying as hard as they can to be non-cultural) and in different parts of the world. Other genetic things such as skull capacity and nearsightedness which have documented correlations with IQ also vary along the same lines between these groups, with the most incidence of myopia and highest cranial capacity in east asians, and lowest in africans.

In studies of adopted children (adopted into white middle class homes), children with 2 black biological parents have an average IQ which is lower than those with 1, which is lower than children with 2 white biological parents, despite being raised in good as opposed to a bad environment. Similarly, east asian adopted children have average IQs significantly higher than the average for their white parents. This doesn't really make sense if race genetics play no part in IQ.

If you look at regression to the mean (ie when two smart people have a dumber child, the child being closer to the average) the magnitude of the regression falls in line with the different racial average IQs. Children born to wealthy, high IQ black parents have IQ on average 2 to 4 points lower than those born to poor, low IQ white parents.

Maybe I overlooked it but I didn't see the examples you're giving in this article, could you provide a page so I can find them more easily? Also, do you understand how small 2 - 4 IQ points difference is? That's within the error of a given test, and could possible be explained simply by cranial size differences, which have a very marginal statistical play in intelligence.

Kashan · « **Reply #37 on:** February 05, 2012, 06:05:25 PM »

Quote from: Misha on February 05, 2012, 05:58:38 PM

lalalala scientific data is irrelevant I don't want to be A RACIST I'm not listening lalalalala

Alright, so you don't like to be called a racist, do you have a response to my counter-arguments?

Disposable Ninja · « **Reply #38 on:** February 05, 2012, 06:07:07 PM »

yeah but dude why is that scientific data even important at all in this thread?

I guess there's important macrosociological stuff in there, sure. But you live in the anecdotal world. There are going to be folks that don't adhere to the averages that you meet in your day-to-day, and if you're using a single general psychological study to inform yourself on how to treat them, then yes: you are being a racist.

Deal with it, bro.

Misha · « **Reply #39 on:** February 05, 2012, 06:07:19 PM »

that was in response to disposable ninja being a douchebag. I care less about being called a racist than if data actually shows racial differences that no one will admit exist.

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Author Topic: Racist Moments (Read 4539 times)