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[Bongo Bill]

It might be that there's an optimal strategy with the lightsaber, namely to just use it as a second lynch. This, of course, does introduce interesting possibilities of its own, and therefore it's not really degenerate, but I wonder if it might be better to try leaving it out for a game.

[Disposable Ninja]

Unless you're the vigilante, or the ninja, or the greater werewolf, or simo belmo.

Vigilante gets one kill per game.

Ninja gets one kill and then has to die himself.

If the Vampire Hunter picks the wrong target to kill he needs to waste a night and some gold recharging his power.

Werewolves are awesome.

[Classic]

It might be that there's an optimal strategy with the lightsaber, namely to just use it as a second lynch. This, of course, does introduce interesting possibilities of its own, and therefore it's not really degenerate, but I wonder if it might be better to try leaving it out for a game.

Has it actually come up in every WvV?

Unless you're the vigilante, or the ninja, or the greater werewolf, or simo belmo.

Werewolves are awesome.

Man, so wrong.

Anyway, that the lightsaber invites either death or a second innocent lynch is maybe a little lame. But that's not what you're arguing as a reason for its exclusion. You're ostensibly complaining because it adds a power that's more common in the game than scries and is balanced by a potent disadvantage (publicity).

It's really tempting, in light of recent events, to attribute your resentment to how you were removed from VvW9. But that'd be dumb and childish. Only fit for annoying passive-aggressive commentary on the internet.

[Disposable Ninja]

Oh no, that's exactly why I'm complaining about the Light Saber. I am just. That. Petty.

Honestly, though, I don't really care for it. It's kind of a pain in the ass.

[A²]

Are you mad because you managed to narrowly escape a lynch and then were cut down like the dog that you are the very next day with little discussion?

[Esperath]

So I was the one who suggested the night 0 vampscry, and I feel like it's the only buff vamps really need.  From a spectator perspective, I like the high-risk-high-reward playstyle of the vampires, and changing their death on wolfbite goes a long way to changing vamp character. 

The night 0 scry would give the vamps a chance to either identify a high-priority target or at least avoid suiciding Drac on night 1.  Alternatively, if they identify a useless turn on night 0, they can still risk biting someone else night 1, and run the original risks.

Regarding lightsaber: not all items are created equal, and yeah, lightsaber is powerful and that's fine.

[LaserBeing]

[17:35] <Lee-Ham> I just thought of an item idea. "Manila Envelope" - lets you send one (1) anonymous message to another player, delivered via GM.
[17:35] <Lee-Ham> perhaps with a character limit if deemed necessary
[17:35] <Friday> oooh
[17:35] <Friday> 5 characters
[17:35] <Friday> "urgay"
[17:35] <Lee-Ham> heh
[17:38] <Lee-Ham> ok I've got it, the Manila Envelope is the version with no character limit, and the truncated version is the Bathroom Mirror
[17:38] <Friday> hahaha
[17:38] <Friday> THERE WAS A HOLE HERE
[17:38] <Friday> IT'S GONE NOW
[17:39] <Lee-Ham> PRAISE THE SUN!

Also the Devil Finder should be called the Ars Goetia.

[Bongo Bill]

So I was the one who suggested the night 0 vampscry, and I feel like it's the only buff vamps really need.  From a spectator perspective, I like the high-risk-high-reward playstyle of the vampires, and changing their death on wolfbite goes a long way to changing vamp character. 

The night 0 scry would give the vamps a chance to either identify a high-priority target or at least avoid suiciding Drac on night 1.  Alternatively, if they identify a useless turn on night 0, they can still risk biting someone else night 1, and run the original risks.

A large part of what happened this game is that the vampires made an easy, common mistake that was very harmful to both the vampires and the wolves. Blind turning should be safer.

That said, there should still be an anti-turning land mine of some sort. Just not 20% of the starting players.

[Defenestration]

I think it would be interesting if the new anti-vampire role had vampires blow up somehow if properly planned instead of being a straight baner port.

[LaserBeing]

I don't think the vamps need anything else that blows them up.

how about

Item - Silk Bag: use on the body of a dead vampire (only 1 silk bag can be used per corpse). The user becomes immune to being Turned by vampires as long as they hold the bag.
Role - Graveyard Duck: sells silk bags for 5 gold each night

[Disposable Ninja]

I think the Weretiger should be able to be both a wolf and a vampire at the same time.

[LaserBeing]

I think we've actually sort of had that happen already. Which game was it where the Weretiger was the Devil and got turned by the vampires?

[LaserBeing]

Oh it was VvW6 where Niku got turned as the Weretiger Devil, but it just killed him, he didn't become a vampwolftiger. My mistake.

[Bongo Bill]

I like that. Buff the weretiger. Let it always appear like a turn attempt on the weretiger is successful, even if they were previously turned. They only ever count as a weretiger.

As for vampires, I'd say something like this:
Vampires can attack anyone at night; if the Master Vampire is the attacker, they can specify whether it's a kill or a turn, otherwise it can only be a kill. If it's to be a turn, then if they hit a wolf, they both survive but are revealed to each other; if it's to be a kill, then both die.

That preserves the relative power structure of vampires and werewolves (recalling that werewolves' night kill works on vampires), but with a significantly reduced possibility of benefiting the innocents, who were uninvolved in the altercation. Against the innocents, it benefits vampires more than werewolves, which is good.

I move we remove the ouija board so that the dead may speak amongst one another.

A pro-vampire innocent role: the Goth. Has no powers on his own, other than being sad. However, if vampires try to kill him, they instead turn him. Additionally, the Goth can replace a dead Master Vampire without counting against the maximum number of replacements; that is, if Dracula dies and a turned Goth can become the Master Vampire, then after the Goth dies, the vampires can have a third Master, or if the second Master Vampire dies, then a turned Goth can replace him as a third Master. Possibly, wins with the vampires even if not turned, like the Devil.

[Disposable Ninja]

If there were a pro-vampire innocent role, I'd prefer something a little sexier, a little more Castlevania: Death - Capable of performing one nightkill per game, like the Vigilante, but can win if the Vampires win even if he isn't turned.

[LaserBeing]

I like the idea of a pro-vampire vigilante that isn't thwarted by wolves. It balances one of the vampires' weaknesses, which is that it's usually difficult or counterproductive for them to kill, in the same way that the Devil compensates for the wolves' inability to scry.

[Bongo Bill]

On the subject of horror-inspired roles, try this one: The Creature, a powerless innocent. When The Creature dies, the only part of their role that is revealed is that they were The Creature, so if they were turned, that information is not revealed, but a scry still works normally. As long as The Creature has been dead for at least one day, any player may pay 6 gold at night to resurrect him. (If more than one person bids, the cost is split: 3 gold apiece for two people, 2 gold apiece for 4 through 5 people, 1 gold apiece for 6 or more. All who participate are told how many bidders were involved but not their identities, and you can only bid if you actually have 6 gold. The Creature himself learns nothing of the group that resurrected him). If The Creature is also the weretiger, hilarity ensues.

[Esperath]

While I agree that bad turns can sabotage both bads, I'd rather see:

Drac turns wolf -> Drac dies.
Drac kills wolf -> Both die.

Turning should be a very high risk event, and a night 0 scry would mitigate that *slightly*.  Mutual information is mostly just a wolf buff, as wolves can kill a dracula the next night anyway if they haven't already forced a lynch, whereas Dracula has to be sacrificed anyway if they want to try and nightkill the wolf they've identified.  Either way, barring item hindrance, that Drac is dead and vamps will almost invariably lose another night worth of actions.

DISREGARD THIS, I SUCK COCKS, WOLFSBANE

[Bongo Bill]

Then make it so a wolf attacking the Master Vampire causes both to die (eliminate the Greater Werewolf altogether). In that case, turning is still a large risk; it's just that what the vampires risk now is giving the wolves the initiative, not just outright dying. Since it's not safe for either side to act directly with the information they gain, there's an incentive to take it to the daytime discussion, which (in addition to making the discussions more potentially interesting) means the innocents can benefit from the release of more clues, rather than simply lucking into two more bodies. It's less of a risk than outright dying, but it's a risk that leads to more strategically interesting situations, and, frankly, the vampires do need a buff.

A night 0 scry would be a good idea too.

[Esperath]

Then make it so a wolf attacking the Master Vampire causes both to die (eliminate the Greater Werewolf altogether).

See, my post was a double disregard this because Drac already has the defensive advantage.