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[Mothra]

Yeah, same here. Didn't much like every character that isn't Coulson.

That said, I really disliked Dollhouse at the start, and I came to really enjoy it once it got its footing, so I'll keep an eye on SHIELD.

My least favorite was the overwhelming sense that we're supposed to be rooting for Big Brother.

So fucking sick of that trope.  I loved The Authority around, oh, say, 1999-2001, but Jesus Christ, it's as played as Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns at this point.

Do you mean that literally, or that you think they're going for "go you secretly rooting for an evil Orwellian organization the entire show then TWIST"?

I wasn't crazy about how they spent the majority of this episode showing how having surveillance on every street corner of the city was the only thing that stopped a bombing. I mean, I've never liked SHIELD for that reason -- it seemed like an excuse to pretend like having an enormous military with unassailable power with insight into every citizens' life would be all that stood in the way of the death of western civilization.

[Thad]

That said, I really disliked Dollhouse at the start, and I came to really enjoy it once it got its footing, so I'll keep an eye on SHIELD.

Right, that's what I meant to imply with the comparison.  Dollhouse took about four episodes to come around, and then BAM.

My least favorite was the overwhelming sense that we're supposed to be rooting for Big Brother.

So fucking sick of that trope.  I loved The Authority around, oh, say, 1999-2001, but Jesus Christ, it's as played as Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns at this point.

Do you mean that literally, or that you think they're going for "go you secretly rooting for an evil Orwellian organization the entire show then TWIST"?

I don't know.  I watched all of Alphas waiting for the episode where the nominal heroes bucked the evil organization whose job it was to disappear people without due process and stick them in a gulag, and it never came.  The show did a very good job of establishing that the people who were in charge were very bad people, but never quite got past the part where the main characters did what they said anyway because they were the lesser of two evils.

(The comic book equivalent of Alphas would be if the X-Men joined up with the Sentinel Program because hey, Magneto is EVEN WORSE.)

Marvel's certainly done plots where SHIELD itself was depicted as a villain and a rogue group of operatives had to re-infiltrate it, take charge, and throw out the corrupt influences -- but I don't see that happening here.  Coulson and everybody else but Hacker Lady seem perfectly okay with the idea that the organization's purpose is to spy on everybody and then swoop in with overwhelming strength.  For their own good, of course.

Granted, the episode managed to twist that idea so far around in the climax that it became self-parody ([spoiler]government agent shoots dangerous but mentally unstable man in the head, but it's all right because it turns out it's actually a special bullet that helps him![/spoiler]) -- but that may be the best we can hope for.

I wasn't crazy about how they spent the majority of this episode showing how having surveillance on every street corner of the city was the only thing that stopped a bombing. I mean, I've never liked SHIELD for that reason -- it seemed like an excuse to pretend like having an enormous military with unassailable power with insight into every citizens' life would be all that stood in the way of the death of western civilization.

You know, my uncle pegged that as the most unsettling thing about Ultimate Spider-Man in its very first episode -- Fury reveals that SHIELD has the technology to negate Spider-Man's Spider Sense, and we as the audience are supposed to accept that as badass instead of terrifying.

[Bal]

I never had that problem with SHIELD because if I was a normal fellow in a world full of metas and mutants I'd want the government to be doing something about it, because god damn. Civil War was supposed to be about that, but then they dropped the ball through a wormhole that turned it into an egg that fell on their faces.

[Thad]

Well, the problem with Civil War was that it took place in the Marvel Universe.

In the real world, Iron Man would be absolutely right and these people need to be accountable.

In the Marvel Universe, Captain America is absolutely right; the superheroes are above suspicion and reproach and the government has repeatedly proven its tendency to send giant robots first and ask questions later.

Superpowers or not, this was a show about a government organization tracking down a guy who was dangerous but, ultimately, the victim of unethical drug experiments, and [spoiler]shooting him in the fucking head during a negotiation[/spoiler].  And, in the process, detaining an (as far as we know) ordinary, non-powered human who was recording anti-government podcasts in her van.

Course, Batman is all about a filthy-rich white guy putting on a scary costume and beating up the mentally ill.  The superhero genre does not want for truly problematic subtext.

[Bal]

I wasn't really specifically referring to the show as much as the organization in the MU. SHIELD generally reflects the government's desire to have some sort of control over all this madness, but failing spectacularly to actually succeed at anything other than comic book, over the top spy games. They're quite a bit more powerful in the Ultimate setting, where they're basically at the center of everything, but they still manage to fuck things up more often than not.

I haven't actually watched the pilot for the show yet, but guys, it's about SHIELD. They're not just, like, contractors for SHIELD, they're actually fucking SHIELD, so they kind of have to be shown as being in the right.

Also, the problem with Civil War was that they fucked it up by completely failing to portray both sides as equally valid (as promised), and turning Tony Stark into a "THEY SAID I WAS CRAZY" mad scientist villain, along with Reed. CLONE THOR IS PERFECTLY ETHICAL. NO I DIDN'T STOP TAKING MY MEDS. It then transitioned into being about Tony and Cap's failed marriage and then stumbled into an awkward faceplant of an ending.

[Thad]

I wasn't really specifically referring to the show as much as the organization in the MU. SHIELD generally reflects the government's desire to have some sort of control over all this madness, but failing spectacularly to actually succeed at anything other than comic book, over the top spy games.

Fair enough, in the current century.  I think it hewed closer to the crazy sci-fi spy genre back in the past century, and particularly in its Steranko heyday.  I don't think I have to say which version I prefer.

They're quite a bit more powerful in the Ultimate setting, where they're basically at the center of everything, but they still manage to fuck things up more often than not.

And of course the film universe is an often-awkward sort of hybrid between the two.  The designs are mostly Hitch or Hitch-influenced (except Iron Man, which is pure Granov), while the characters and their origins are closer to their Kirby/Lee/et al incarnations.  It's an attempt to reconcile the aspirational, if flawed, heroes of the 1960's with more modern, grim-'n'-gritty sensibilities, and the SHIELD series, by going ground-level, makes that awkward contradiction all the plainer.  The climax of the episode has one character talking about how terrifying it is to have actual gods walking the Earth and hitting aliens with hammers and seriously, how the hell is one man supposed to feel like he can do anything; Coulson responds that they don't do what they do because of their gifts, they do it because of the kind of people they are.

(Which reminds me of something Evanier has often said about Kirby: "You will probably never be able to draw like him, but you do have the ability to work as hard as he did.")

It really didn't work for me.  But I appreciate the effort.

I haven't actually watched the pilot for the show yet, but guys, it's about SHIELD. They're not just, like, contractors for SHIELD, they're actually fucking SHIELD, so they kind of have to be shown as being in the right.

Well yes, that's it exactly -- so if they're depicted as being Big Brother, then ipso facto Big Brother has to be shown as being in the right.

The question then becomes, is it possible at all to depict a covert government organization in 2013 without showing it spying on its citizens and violating their fundamental rights?

My answer is yes, it is, IF you're doing escapist fantasy.

They don't need to make any statement at all about current events or the modern surveillance state, but they've chosen to wade into it.  And while one character pretty effectively calls out how terrifying this all is, she comes around by the end of the episode and realizes they're the good guys.

Now, it's entirely possible she'll continue to be a voice of protest throughout the show, try to reform them from the inside -- possibly even play the kind of role that Green Arrow did on JLU.  That would be great!  But judging by the pilot alone, the whole thing's pretty disquieting and fuck no I do not consider SHIELD to be in the right and find it deeply problematic that the writers/producers/network think I SHOULD after that hour.

Also, the problem with Civil War was that they fucked it up by completely failing to portray both sides as equally valid (as promised), and turning Tony Stark into a "THEY SAID I WAS CRAZY" mad scientist villain, along with Reed. CLONE THOR IS PERFECTLY ETHICAL. NO I DIDN'T STOP TAKING MY MEDS. It then transitioned into being about Tony and Cap's failed marriage and then stumbled into an awkward faceplant of an ending.

Yeah, Tony and Reed really didn't come off well and the whole Clone Thor thing was just bonkers.  But I still think the premise is flawed from the start, at least as set in the Marvel Universe -- the premise of a Registration Act would work fine in the Ultimate Universe, though the UU would have its own problems with the story (mainly, too small a cast to make for much of a Civil War, and a much harder case for who would be on the anti-registration side -- as Millar himself noted, Ultimate Cap would definitely be pro-).

[Bal]

Nah, I don't think the premise is inherently flawed for the main MU. It's basically been the backdrop for the X-Men since day 1, and the biggest problem with that has always been "Why just mutants? Why not all these freaks?", which Civil War set out to answer. The problem, as I said, is just that they fucked it up. It's easy to believe that rational minded, non-evil characters would be totally on board with Registration, and equally so that others wouldn't, and this being professional wrestling, I mean cape comics, they'd have to settle it with a big fight. Unfortunately the most memorable thing that actually came out of the cluster fuck they actually delivered is OMD/BND. SO THAT WENT WELL.

[Büge]

The problem, as I said, is just that they fucked it up.

I'll say. They never actually defined what the parameters of the Registration Act were, so in one book, you'd have a fairly reasonable (but debatable) set of laws while in another, they'd be OBEY OR DIE. I maintain that Marvel should have had one of their lawyers draft up a document that writers could work around. Even if it was a flimsy one, there would be at least some consistency.

[Thad]

Nah, I don't think the premise is inherently flawed for the main MU. It's basically been the backdrop for the X-Men since day 1

Ah, but now you've hit another of the contradictions of shared-universe superhero comics: yes, we like that these characters all exist in the same place and interact with each other, but if you think about it too hard the entire thing starts to unravel.  Why doesn't the Justice League just go in and fix up Gotham City?  Because that would be messing with Batman's cake.

A premise that works for the X-Men doesn't necessarily make sense for the rest of the Marvel Universe.  It doesn't even necessarily make sense for the X-Men.

After fifty years it's pretty hard to swallow the "people don't trust these guys" idea, even with heavyhanded racist metaphors and the occasional clone or mind control incident ruining someone's reputation.  I like to think that Jameson's pretty much the only guy who doesn't trust Spider-Man at this point and everybody else is just laughing at him; not only does that make the most sense given how thoroughly Spidey's proven himself at this point, it's also funnier that way.

Unfortunately the most memorable thing that actually came out of the cluster fuck they actually delivered is OMD/BND. SO THAT WENT WELL.

BND actually did go pretty well.

I'll say. They never actually defined what the parameters of the Registration Act were, so in one book, you'd have a fairly reasonable (but debatable) set of laws while in another, they'd be OBEY OR DIE. I maintain that Marvel should have had one of their lawyers draft up a document that writers could work around. Even if it was a flimsy one, there would be at least some consistency.

Continuity was a HUGE fucking problem in Civil War, and usually is in events of that size, but starting to actually examine legal reasoning is one more thing that makes the whole thing unravel.  I'm certainly not the first person to point out that Captain America would have been much better off arguing his case in court than with punching.

[Thad]

I liked the second episode a lot better than the first -- not only does SHIELD do some stuff that's actually heroic (including [spoiler]shooting the doomsday weapon out into space instead of keeping it for themselves[/spoiler] -- can't imagine THAT could have any repercussions), but the episode was centered around Coulson and why he's so likable: ultimately, because he's an optimist; he's a guy who cares about stuff.  They managed to pull off the "heroes try to save the villains" cliche and actually make me FEEL something besides annoyance at it.

And sure, the bits where characters engaged in annoying, corny arguments with each other tended to drag the whole thing down -- but you know what?  That's what Marvel IS.  Mismatched teams of misfits who don't work well with others, bitching at each other.  I don't think those scenes quite lived up to the high standard of subtle, naturalistic dialogue set by Stan Lee, but maybe someday.

Oh, and [spoiler]Nick Fury?  Total hypocrite.  Like he never explosively decompressed a cabin to get some motherfuckin' snakes off a motherfuckin' plane before.[/spoiler]

[Disposable Ninja]

[spoiler]shooting him in the fucking head during a negotiation[/spoiler].

[spoiler]... with the cure. They shot him with the cure that kept him from exploding[/spoiler]

[Mothra]

[Thad]

[spoiler]shooting him in the fucking head during a negotiation[/spoiler].

[spoiler]... with the cure. They shot him with the cure that kept him from exploding[/spoiler]

Yes, thank you.

Granted, the episode managed to twist that idea so far around in the climax that it became self-parody ([spoiler]government agent shoots dangerous but mentally unstable man in the head, but it's all right because it turns out it's actually a special bullet that helps him![/spoiler]) -- but that may be the best we can hope for.

[Royal☭]

yeah, the ending only seemed to go down that way for the sole purpose of making you think that the guy had just been shot by a real bullet. One of the characters saying "Hey, we have the antidote to your condition" and then administering it in a consensual fashion was not an option because it wasn't as dramatic. It's really like the writers arrived at "Shoot him with cure bullet" and then tired to create a scenario where that fit, but when they couldn't they just said "Fuck it' and shot him with the cure bullet anyway.

[Mothra]

It was weird that it was to his head, yeah. Like... no matter how good your cure is, it still bore its way into his brain right there.

[Mongrel]

Nice:

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. is like doing a Lord of the Rings TV show where the characters are not allowed to mention Frodo, orcs, the ring, Sauron, elves, dwarves, Aragon, Gandalf or magic; and every episode, the main characters fight a different gang of human bandits

[Thad]

That would be a good analogy if the very first fucking shot of the show in question was kids looking at Gandalf and Frodo action figures.

[Niku]

Or if they didn't mention Sauron like three times an episode but talked about "that big damn glowing eye".

Also, episode three was probably the most fun one so far.  Still not GREAT tv, but good tv.

[Royal☭]

Marvel strikes deal to create Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Power Man and Iron Fist shows for Netflix

Still has not announced plans to put elements of the Marvel universe in a network TV show.

[Thad]

I'm going to have to assume that's because the networks have spent the past decade saying No.  How long have they been trying to get Jessica Jones on the air?

Still, people have been saying street-level heroes -- and these characters in particular -- are perfect for a TV series, and I'm inclined to agree.

And hey, for 50% of them I even get to be offended that they're stiffing creators BESIDES Jack Kirby!  And for the remaining 25%, I bet the creators actually get a cut!