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[Defenestration]

Thoughts: Frankenstein is a dumb role. If he's innocent, there's no reason to dig him up until he's needed like in this game. If he's turned then he makes a fine distraction for both scum teams, but he'll just be lynched over and over. This doesn't add much of anything, and is a town nerf more than anything else. And it certainly doesn't seem much fun for the Frankenstien.

Death seems too strong, and the wrong approach to balancing the vampires to me.

Also I have plans (and they are oh, oh so glorious) that I've been writing up since the end of VvW9 proper. Anyone mind if I take VvW9.75 after a few months and a bit of discussion with the two traditional game masters?

[gahitsu]

Great game! I had tons and tons of fun. Going into the game (before roles were assigned), I was kind of hoping vamps would make it, since they haven't had a proper win yet. And proper win they did! When we were days into the game and no vamps had been targeted, I actually figured all other sides were pretty screwed. Too bad I was vampire hunter, or I'd have tried to make sweet with y'all.

I do believe that the bads winning so many items was a huge fucking boon to them and a definite death knell to the innocents. Part of the game, of course, is the setting up of sides/a side with few members but with near-perfect information, and a large group of uninformed members. So the fact that bads can coordinate with one another to form item acquisition blocs is kind of a big deal, especially in an item-heavy game like this. It could have come down to good luck on behalf of the bads, and the fact that there was never an inno bloc formed, but I still think it might be worth looking at maybe lowering the amount that batwolves start off with/giving townies more golds.

Ahahahaha that seems exactly like something Dizzy would do. Fuck you m'dear.

Also, I'm really sorry I got you killed, Friday. :C I was still inno when you died! I'd whipped Caith, and in talking to him expressed that I believed that you were a turned wolf; Caith et al killed you to gain my trust and to prove there was still a wolf spot open, or at least that you had not occupied that particular vacancy. Also, I had just the worst feeling about being turned that night. I thought it was a bad idea, but I'm new to Bronto so what would I know? I think it was a difficult decision to make anyway. But then the very next day Friend went nuts and outed fucking everybody so I didn't last a full day. I think it's nice you guys decided to bite me all the same. Go go, team canine!

Friend that was ballsy as fuck and I laughed and laughed that you had both bads playing chicken with each other. That was fucking classic. :3c

I think Frankenstein is an interesting mechanic, but ultimately kind of a dud role, but I don't believe it's necessarily a town nerf as Defen said.

I'd wanted to get on dtsund's case for being so irritatingly quiet, but I guess it was mostly a moot point because of his late turn. Still!

Again, congratulations vampires, that was a great play, and I'm glad team fangy finally earned their triumphant win.

[Bongo Bill]

I'd support a Defenestration game.

For those who are interested, here is the spreadsheet that I used to keep track of everything.

[Zaratustra]

The funniest thing was seeing two first-votes I made more or less at random becoming lynches.

[Bongo Bill]

Defenestration and I were discussing some possible changes to the vampires. This is what we've come up with so far:

1) The Master Vampire no longer gets a scry.
2) Vampire attacks on wolves simply fail; the wolf doesn't learn they were attacked at all. Vampires don't learn why the attack failed.
3) To protect against Vampires, it is possible to acquire Garlic as long as the Vampire Hunter is alive, analogously to Wolfsbane. Garlic is acquired by trading in an unused or passive item. We haven't quite worked out the exact mechanics, but we're thinking one of the following: Either a) the user gives the item back to the Auction House, where it'll come up for auction again the next day, or b) the item is depleted or its passive effects are negated for a night and a day.

Also, I kind of agree that Frankenstein just isn't that fun a role.

A change to the Vampire Hunter would work well: on a missed attack, the Vampire Hunter loses their power's charge and learns that the target is not currently a vampire, but no other information is disseminated, and also the target is protected from vampires that night.

[gahitsu]

Would it be a permanent charge loss, or one that can be bought back?

[jsnlxndrlv]

My big lesson this game was about the dangers of drinking  and posting; I think I could have kept a much lower profile had I not decided it would be "fine" to post from the bar on my phone.

I forget--did we decide the masons were too powerful for VvW?

[dtsund]

Good game, all; really tense toward the end.

Why would the innocents have stood a better chance of winning if the weretiger wasn't about, though?

Sure; if we'd lynched Friend, our plan as the vampires was to have Defenestration suicide against Envy that night.  If Envy had targeted me, that'd have eliminated all the wolfpires in one night.

(If Envy targeted anyone else, we'd have won there, though.  Envy killing you or LaserBeing would make it 1 vamp and one inno left, while Envy preemptively killing Defenestration puts the innos in an unwinnable situation, but an unwinnable situation in which I have bargaining power that Envy doesn't.)

I wasn't just speaking for my own interest when I was arguing for the lynch of Friend.  And, to be honest, I'm not entirely sure I know what your plan was... I think you were banking on both evil factions killing Friend that night, then buying the Voting Box, using that to lynch one of the vampires, having Envy finish off the other one, then resurrecting LaserBeing to get Envy lynched.  That was never going to happen, though; we'd thought through that eventuality, and concluded that if we targeted Friend we won if and only if Envy killed you (which we thought was unlikely).

We got our best victory odds from turning you, so that's what we did; note that this meant there was no longer any hope for an innocent victory.  If the real reasoning behind that LaserBeing lynch was to force us to turn you to what ultimately wound up being the winning team, rather than potentially turning LaserBeing, then that was a cunning strategy that I can absolutely respect.

I'd wanted to get on dtsund's case for being so irritatingly quiet, but I guess it was mostly a moot point because of his late turn. Still!

This was partly me being busy IRL, and partly wanting to maintain a low profile on account of being the Seer.  Mostly the former, though.

Fun fact: I'd scanned you before you got turned, and was intending to shoot you the names of any vampires I'd found right up until I got turned myself.  I only knew you were a wolf because it was vampire knowledge!

Defenestration and I were discussing some possible changes to the vampires. This is what we've come up with so far:

1) The Master Vampire no longer gets a scry.
2) Vampire attacks on wolves simply fail; the wolf doesn't learn they were attacked at all. Vampires don't learn why the attack failed.
3) To protect against Vampires, it is possible to acquire Garlic as long as the Vampire Hunter is alive, analogously to Wolfsbane. Garlic is acquired by trading in an unused or passive item. We haven't quite worked out the exact mechanics, but we're thinking one of the following: Either a) the user gives the item back to the Auction House, where it'll come up for auction again the next day, or b) the item is depleted or its passive effects are negated for a night and a day.

Also, I kind of agree that Frankenstein just isn't that fun a role.

A change to the Vampire Hunter would work well: on a missed attack, the Vampire Hunter loses their power's charge and learns that the target is not currently a vampire, but no other information is disseminated, and also the target is protected from vampires that night.

Most of these seem like vampire nerfs.  Given that this is apparently the first game the vampires have won, is this really appropriate?

Speaking as someone who's never played under this ruleset before, I think the biggest problem with it is how much of a difference the Baner being alive or dead makes to the game state.  I'd propose that when the Baner dies, wolfsbane can still be bought, but at a steep markup.

[Bongo Bill]

Would it be a permanent charge loss, or one that can be bought back?

The kind that can be bought back, like currently.

[Disposable Ninja]

Thoughts: Frankenstein is a dumb role. If he's innocent, there's no reason to dig him up until he's needed like in this game. If he's turned then he makes a fine distraction for both scum teams, but he'll just be lynched over and over. This doesn't add much of anything, and is a town nerf more than anything else. And it certainly doesn't seem much fun for the Frankenstien.

I agree.

Death seems too strong, and the wrong approach to balancing the vampires to me.

I disagree, but that's probably because Death was my idea. I think he makes sense, though; where the Devil covers up for the greatest weakness of the Wolves (all power, no knowledge), Death helps cover for the Vampires' weakness (all insidiousness, not much power). This is all moot, though. It's not like we got much of a chance this game to see if it was an effective vampire buff, what with the Night 1 wolf murder.

On the other hand, Vamps won without him. So who knows?

[NexAdruin]

This game was very frustrating for me. I had it figured out as soon as I flipped. :/

heartbreaking moments:

Gahitsu - I will never understand why you felt the need to vote for me. I implied that claiming to be the weretiger as an innocent could be useful and you immediately jumped on me for saying anti-town shit. Just no. Lynching the weretiger early on would have been dumb, because the bads want him dead more than the innocents do in the early game. Let the bads bite him instead of wasting a lynch. In fact, the innocents were sort of back in the game by the time Friend was the public deviltiger. But a few other heartbreaking moments killed that as well (not that they REALLY stood a chance, but)...

Ardus - Hammering me was an awful decision. It was just a bad decision all around.

Newbie - I guess you were drunk or something but as soon as Stush called out Friend and you said you PI'd him last night I immediately facepalmed so hard I left an imprint. You just told everyone who the PI was, man! Oh well, no hard feelings. You're usually more savvy than that.

Laserbeing and Stush - WHY did you vote for a confirmed innocent on that last day? you knew who all the bads were and you could have gotten a majority against any of them (friend and envy to vote for vamps, defen and dtsund to vote for envy/friend). Stush spent most of the game not understanding what he was doing but Laserbeing has played before. That was basically the worst thing.

Town in general - I flipped inno and then nobody pushed to lynch the people who had voted for me. Why even lynch people if you're not going to use the information gained? Did you guys even scry defenestration and caithness?

Congratulations to the vampires for knowing what they were doing. Props to the wolves as well.

My story: I tried to contact 4 people before I died. They were Friday, an innocent, Defenestration, a dirty vampire, Caithness, a wolf, and kayma, another wolf. Friday was uncooperative so I left her alone. Defenestration immediately turned aggressive, which is fair because if my plan had worked out better I could have really positioned myself into some power. Caithness was a bit more sly about it, but once he saw an argument against me form he was ready to jump on. Kayma never gave me any hint that he was a bad until after I died. I told him that the person to hammer me would have been a bad, and the person that hammered me was Ardus. Ardus was later nightkilled, and the wolves were probably expecting to hit a vampire (sorry, wolves! I didn't know Ardus was going to do something so dumb. Next time I will try to be more accurate when I help you find vamps).

[Defenestration]

Most of these seem like vampire nerfs.  Given that this is apparently the first game the vampires have won, is this really appropriate?

Second time, actually. My intent was not to nerf vampires, but change their functionality entirely. The other change Bongo left out (or missed) was to have three starting vampires as well. I also intended for the wolf turn target to be clueless, but the vampire was aware that he tried to bite a wolf. Bongo's argument about there being entirely too much information flying around is pretty valid however, so it's probably better as he stated it.

I'm still not happy with the set of compromises Bongo has set up; Vampires should be harder to defend against than wolves but to win an item and then sacrifice it seems far too steep a price, as does my earlier idea of having the option barricading your house and sacrificing your night action and bids to prevent the turn every other day. To really make my vampire rebalance ideas work I need to come up with more possible solutions for innocent defense against them that is 1. elegant 2. not simply buying VAMPIRE WOLFSBANE and 3. still more annoying or costly than wolf defense.

[Stush]

We got our best victory odds from turning you, so that's what we did; note that this meant there was no longer any hope for an innocent victory.  If the real reasoning behind that LaserBeing lynch was to force us to turn you to what ultimately wound up being the winning team, rather than potentially turning LaserBeing, then that was a cunning strategy that I can absolutely respect.

Laserbeing and Stush - WHY did you vote for a confirmed innocent on that last day? you knew who all the bads were and you could have gotten a majority against any of them (friend and envy to vote for vamps, defen and dtsund to vote for envy/friend). Stush spent most of the game not understanding what he was doing but Laserbeing has played before. That was basically the worst thing.

I wish I could claim that I was making deep strategic moves, but no, every move I made this game was pretty much a mistake. The whole lynching lee-ham thing was part of a strategy, Which I honestly thought could have worked. Credit goes to friend, because he came up with it.

Basically, we'd lynch lee-ham, And then envy would kill the master vampire [I forgot that he'd die if that happens], And then me and envy and friend vote to lynch the other vampire, and then, I was hoping that envy would kill Friend rather than me that night. And that same night, i'd resurrect Lee-Ham, And in the next morning, there'd be Two innocents and one wolf, and we'd just vote the wolf out and win.

It was a long shot even when I thought it was possible, and now that I know it wasn't, I still don't feel silly, because it felt like a good plan! I can see why it looked a bit crazy at the time, though.

I didn't really expect envy to just kill Friend and let the vampires win, although from what people have been telling me, You can usually expect envy to not do what you expect.

[Stush]

Stush spent most of the game not understanding what he was doing

Yeah, and I sort of ended up making it to the end of the game, too! Maybe that's the real way to win at this game, Don't worry about strategies or alliances or being secretive. Just blurt out everything you learn, be honest to people, and just do what feels right at the time.

It's probably as effective as coming up with grand strategies is.

[Disposable Ninja]

Well, technically, you were on the winning team, Stush.

[Stush]

I know, it still doesn't feel like a legit win, though. I'll just say that the vampire team won, and I inadvertently helped them with that.

[NexAdruin]

okay, I can understand trying to keep frankenstein safe from a turn, but it was far too late in the game to be removing innocents in the hopes that it would cause a wolf to bite a vampire, especially when that wolf already knew who the vampire was

[Stush]

We figured envy would kill a vampire, and then it'd just be a wolf, a vampire, an inno and the weretiger, and we'd vote the other vampire out, and then the weretiger would get killed, and lee-ham would come back and we'd vote the wolf out.

It sounded like a good plan!

[Caithness]

why would you vote for me if you didn't even have the poison

I figured the majority of remaining players were bads and would be able to agree on lynching you.

I should have just used Air Bud instead of saying anything or voting for anyone, though. We would have won the next morning when Kayma won the lightsaber.

[Friend]

Good game, everyone. Especially the vamps. But dammit, Envy, I told you to kill dtsund or defenestration, not me.

And Friend, I don't know how you got so many to buy into your bullshit after you were outed for *three days straight,* but I respect that.

buddy all you gotta do is tell the truth. That last day when you finally came out as Olrox almost got me lynched.