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[Thad]

Yeah; it depends on whether you're referring to Batman chronology or real-life chronology.

I like how Year One pretty much makes it plain that Gordon is no dummy and figures out who Batman is immediately but lets him keep plausible deniability.  Over the Edge plays with that a bit too.

[Thad]

Per Sims reading Vulture, there's apparently a deleted scene revealing that Bane also had a back injury and had to recover from it.

[Brentai]

You know, it just hit me that Batman has the same problem with his identity that He-Man has - who the hell is he protecting?  It always seemed to me that the King and Queen of Eternia would be safer if it was publicly known that their son would turn into an invincible hercules and punch your face in if you fucked with them.  Same thing with Bruce Wayne - his parents are already dead, all his friends are also costumed crazies, people would be less willing to rob Wayne Manor if they knew the fucking Batman lived there, and woe to the poor idiot who touches the butler.  I guess it's convenient for him to be able to operate as Bruce Wayne without scrutiny, but is it really worth all the hand-wringing?

I guess this is the wrong context since the Nolan trilogy does give him a normal person to worry about (and he does sort of start role-revealing like crazy after she explodes) but in general there doesn't seem to be a compelling argument against telling the world that he is Iron Man.

[TA]

You know, it just hit me that Batman has the same problem with his identity that He-Man has - who the hell is he protecting?  It always seemed to me that the King and Queen of Eternia would be safer if it was publicly known that their son would turn into an invincible hercules and punch your face in if you fucked with them.  Same thing with Bruce Wayne - his parents are already dead, all his friends are also costumed crazies, people would be less willing to rob Wayne Manor if they knew the fucking Batman lived there, and woe to the poor idiot who touches the butler.  I guess it's convenient for him to be able to operate as Bruce Wayne without scrutiny, but is it really worth all the hand-wringing?

I guess this is the wrong context since the Nolan trilogy does give him a normal person to worry about (and he does sort of start role-revealing like crazy after she explodes) but in general there doesn't seem to be a compelling argument against telling the world that he is Iron Man.

Well, there's the pretty explicit argument he gives a couple times during Rises - that if it becomes known that Bruce Wayne is doing all this, then that makes it Bruce Wayne's thing.  The goal isn't to be a hero, it's to be an example, a template, to inspire others.  Which doesn't work unless Batman could be anybody.

[Brentai]

He sends really mixed messages about that throughout the trilogy though, with the most blatantly obvious example in the beginning of The Dark Knight.  We have examples of him bitching people out for trying to be Batman and bitching out others (Blake) for being something BESIDES Batman.  It really is kind of His Thing in practice.

[Doom]

It's comics. The writers of Batman have set it up so that Batman keeps his identity secret because the entire Law system of the United States would fall on him like a boulder for vigilantism. The writers of Iron Man(movie, as far as I know) didn't care or explained it away as needing him to battle "Bigger Threats", like in the Avengers. Comics!

There are some good scenes where Gordon rages at Batman for not becoming a cop. I think No Man's Land has one of the best as Gordon feels double-betrayed by Batman and by his legacy, as he leaves the city before it goes to Hell but every Police Department in the country laughs him out when he applies, even though Gotham City is a hot-spot of crime that'd eat them alive.

Also keep in mind how many people Batman has in his Rogue's Gallery that aren't afraid of him and would shoot the Butler. The Joker is the most immediate and glaring example but off the top of my head... Killer Croc, Mr. Freeze, Two-Face, The Penguin, Black Mask, Poison Ivy... etc. Bruce Wayne is Batman would only scare regular mooks.

[Misha]

Plus, Bruce Wayne lives in a giant obvious mansion, with his bat-cave right underneath. Batman having a home no one knows about is super important. It doesn't matter if some idiot tries to rob Wayne Manor, but if someone blows it up to get to the bat-cave that's bad shit.

[Thad]

In most versions of the story, Batman is operating outside the law; Gordon may like him and even have a giant spotlight with his logo on it, but even assuming every cop, city/state/federal official, and Arkham shrink is on Gordon's side, think of the lawsuits if Batman were to unmask.

Plus he's not bulletproof and frequntly appears in public.

(The version of the story where Batman actually IS a fully deputized member of the GCPD is...the 1960's TV show.  And if we're going to start questioning the logic of THAT version, I think the better place to start is "How do they get their costumes on while sliding down those poles?")

It's comics. The writers of Batman have set it up so that Batman keeps his identity secret because the entire Law system of the United States would fall on him like a boulder for vigilantism. The writers of Iron Man(movie, as far as I know) didn't care or explained it away as needing him to battle "Bigger Threats", like in the Avengers. Comics!

Stark kept the "Iron Man is my bodyguard" ruse up at least through the 1990's.  In the comics, yeah, the Avengers are generally regarded as some kind of legally-sanctioned government body (either US or UN), so Stark unmasking makes sense.  Movie Stark seemed to do it rather impulsively and it resulted in Nick Fury immediately breaking into his house and making veiled ultimata.

Also keep in mind how many people Batman has in his Rogue's Gallery that aren't afraid of him and would shoot the Butler. The Joker is the most immediate and glaring example but off the top of my head... Killer Croc, Mr. Freeze, Two-Face, The Penguin, Black Mask, Poison Ivy... etc. Bruce Wayne is Batman would only scare regular mooks.

The way the comics have played it for the past few years is that Joker pretty clearly knows who Batman is but acts like he doesn't because those are The Rules.  (He even showed up on the Wayne Manor grounds, right outside the Batcave, to help bring down Dr. Hurt at the end of Batman and Robin Must Die -- but crucially, that was when Dick had become Batman and the Joker had adopted an entirely different persona and begun actively helping him.)

Ra's and Talia, of course, know who Batman is, but they're playing a much higher-level game than "reveal Batman's identity".  As far as striking at those close to him, well, the very first thing Ra's ever did was kidnap Robin.

[Thad]

Adding: From Finger's "a superstitious and cowardly lot" to Neeson's "A legend, Mr. Wayne," the entire history of Batman (give or take the Silver Age) is about Batman using fear and mystery as his primary weapons.  He's this bigger-than-life figure; he hides in the shadows and appears out of nowhere; he's an urban legend.

Put a human face on him and you take that away -- no matter WHOSE face it is, let alone if it turns out to be the pampered rich man who you just saw on the cover of a supermarket tabloid.

There's a bit in RotJ where the Joker forlornly tells Terry how DISAPPOINTED he was when he found out who Batman was -- that after all these years he was just a scared little boy crying out for Mommy and Daddy.  That there wasn't more to him.

As both Rises and Morrison's Batman and Robin/Batman Incorporated point out, Batman could be anybody.  (And remember the bit in Almost Got 'Im where Two-Face floats the theory that there's more than one Batman and Gordon's got a whole squad of them, "like a SWAT team"?)

The more everybody knows about him, the less effective he is.

[Royal☭]

See, Rise and the Nolan trilogy was all about how Bruce wanted Batman to be anybody. He criticized the guys in Dark Knight because they were doing it right. They were just giving into the criminal's culture of ultra-violence and desperation. Bruce in the films wants people to become so much more than they are. It's almost a Superman story, really. And it's why the final shot of DKR is John Blake rising up on a platform. Which is where the more troublesome themes come in, such as did Batman mean that he meant for one specific, Batman-like person to come out. But that's another discussion.

[Thad]

Well, I mean, I don't think he wanted anyone to be Batman specifically or literally.  Indeed, he wanted Batman to be unnecessary; he wanted Dent to be the shining figure who made Batman obsolete.

Thing is, Bruce Wayne could have been that figure -- and that's touched upon briefly in a couple places but not explored nearly as much as I'd have liked.

Something I think TAS did really well was depict him helping people as both Batman AND Bruce Wayne.  He volunteers in a soup kitchen as Bruce.  As Bruce, he hires a small-time thug that he just got through roughing up as Batman.  There's a balance there that's forgotten far too often.  (Even in Batman Beyond.  I've said before that I love Old Bruce, but I really do think he's at odds with the more balanced, healthy characterization in TAS.)

And in the end, he certainly realizes the importance of leaving a legacy -- again, and this is important, as both Bruce AND as Batman -- and leaving the Batcave to Blake certainly indicates that he believes there may be a need for someone LIKE Batman at some point in the future.

But you know, we never do see Blake put on the cowl.  For all we know, he could wear a domino mask and replace the bat-symbol on the chest with a blue V.

While it's implied that Blake becomes a new Batman, I don't think it's an accident that we don't see him in costume.  (Any more than, say, the ambiguous final shot in Inception is an accident.)

Certainly there's the ol' "It's not who I am on the inside that's important, it's my actions that define me" -- but of course it bears noting that that line was deeply ironic given that he used it to REVEAL who he was on the inside.  At best Nolan is giving us a mixed damn signal with that statement.

Which I'm kinda okay with, really.  I like Dick as Nightwing and his own man; I also liked him as Batman and still clearly a completely different person than his predecessor.  (I love the bit where Gordon turns around and is surprised to find him still there.)  I DO think that, to some extent, the point of Batman Inc is that anybody can be Batman, but at the same time every Batman is different.

Hell, put it like that and I start to feel better about the "nobody can actually be Batman except Bruce" edict -- because each member of the Bat-family is just as much Batman as he is, no matter the color of the tights stupid-looking V-necked armor.

[A²]

I always took Old Bruce in Beyond as not fully....there. He's been embittered and beaten down by the years that an endless war on crime that has progressed nowhere. We see a Bruce who is only barely hanging on to his ideals out of a sense of duty and honor to former comrades.

He's still Bruce Wayne, but after the war, rather than the Bruce Wayne in TAS before the war.

[Brentai]

Wasn't there an episode of Justice League where Batman meets Old Bruce and basically calls him a twat?

[A²]

Which batman?

[Thad]

Nah, it was more the other way 'round.  Batman's trying to intimidate a thug and Old Bruce says "I can't believe I was ever that green."  Then he lifts his cane menacingly; quick cut to the thug spilling his guts about everything up to and including his bedwetting problem.

They also both tell Terry to shut up in unison.

It's a pretty good bit, but -- partly because it IS a team show, juggling a whole bunch of characters and plot threads in half an hour -- I think there are some missed opportunities in there.

I'd have liked a bit where Old Bruce takes Batman aside and whispers something to him -- because to hell with the integrity of the spacetime continuum; he's going to try to save Tim.

Then again, seeing all that happens when somebody fucks with the spacetime continuum, I guess he can still have the perspective that if he tries to make things better for Tim he'll wind up making them worse for a bunch of other people.

[NexAdruin]

my favorite line in this movie was when Bane and his men overtook the stock exchange and someone says "there's no money here!" to which Bane barks "then why are you here, brother?"

[Brentai]

You know, I had a huge rant about why the entire concept of the GCSE Heist made no fucking sense, but it turns out (as to be expected) that somebody who knows a lot more about this stuff than I do already covered it.

Though it kind of only glosses over the major problem, which is that absolutely nobody who isn't already aware of the situation stops to question how the fuck Bruce Wayne managed to make a series of bad trades in person, unnoticed, during a hostage situation.  Maybe he's Batman!!!

[Ted Belmont]

I also like the bit (in the one with the Joker Casino, if I'm not mistaken) where Joker goes, "Wait a minute.  I know that jawline.  You're -- Bruce Wayne!"  I mean, yeah, it's cribbed directly from The Simpsons ("That voice!  I know that voice!  ...Why if it isn't little Bart Simpson!") but it's still a good gag.

But yeah, Bruce cultivating the image of a playboy layabout goes all the way back to the very beginning.  There have been some rather good bits of it over the years; the beginning of Dark Knight Returns where he and Gordon are sipping drinks and Gordon reminisces to the old days when Bruce used to drink ginger ale and fooled everybody into thinking he was a lush.

There's an old Silver Age story too (frequently reprinted because the backup story from that issue is the first appearance of Martian Manhunter) where Batman goes out of town and, while he's gone, they let ordinary citizens of Gotham each take the role of Batman for a day.

That was Harley, actually, in Harley's Holiday!

Also:

[Thad]

Though it kind of only glosses over the major problem, which is that absolutely nobody who isn't already aware of the situation stops to question how the fuck Bruce Wayne managed to make a series of bad trades in person, unnoticed, during a hostage situation.  Maybe he's Batman!!!

Isn't there a line about how he could get it sorted out but doesn't have time?  That's how I read it: obviously it's a fuckup and he could obviously get it fixed, but Talia and Bane have engineered it so that he doesn't have a moment's respite to make any calls.

I like to think SOMEBODY gets it taken care of and Alfred gets the rest of the inheritance and does something generous with it.

[Thad]

You know, as much as the films have an increasingly right-wing aftertaste, there's also a pervasive theme that violence and crime are caused by poverty.

Particularly in the first movie.  There's that scene where Joe Chill is testifying that he killed the Waynes because he was poor and desperate -- you can certainly read that as a sniveling criminal trying to get out of his punishment (and I initially did), but I think you also need to accept that it's true on some level.  Because keep in mind that the recession was deliberately orchestrated by Ra's al Ghul.  If you're to accept that Ra's created the circumstances that indirectly led to the Waynes' death -- and I am fairly confident you're supposed to -- then you need to accept that Joe Chill wouldn't have been running around murdering people if the city hadn't been in such dire financial straits.

(It also bears adding that "Your parents' death was not your fault, Bruce; it was your father's" is more than just saying a father has an obligation to protect his family -- though after Rises we can certainly assume Ra's has a guilt complex on that particular issue.  He's saying that Thomas should have gotten the fuck out of Dodge instead of choosing to stay and fight him.)

This point comes up a few more times -- Catwoman, of course, and the orphans who Bane recruits.  Arguably Bane and Talia too, though "raised in a literal pit" is somewhere south of "raised in poverty".

Actually, come to think of it, there's a pretty clear line between the Pit and Bane seeking to free everyone imprisoned under the Dent Act.  You can see him having some sympathy for people imprisoned without proper due process -- and the fundamental irony of his ensuing kangaroo courts against the former oppressors.