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[Beat Bandit]

In a list of recent knife-based attacks, she is specifically calling out the man who was defending himself from a guy with a gun. That is the issue.

If you don't think details or facts are as important to whatever she wants her point to be, congratulations, you're her perfect viewer.

[R^2]

On the one hand, you can't expect one person to have encyclopedic knowledge about every video game ever.

On the other hand, $160,000 can buy a whole lot of consulting.

On the other other hand, that's still a woman getting punched and kidnapped in the game intro. Even if Marian has her moments later, that at best puts her on a Zelda-ish "She helps sometimes but has to pencil 'heroism' into her day planner around all the kidnapping, cursing, petrification, and other stuff that takes her out of the conflict".

[Brentai]

Okay so is the beginning of the game still not about a woman being punched in the gut and hauled off?

Fucking covered this.

[Royal☭]

In a list of recent knife-based attacks, she is specifically calling out the man who was defending himself from a guy with a gun. That is the issue.

If you don't think details or facts are as important to whatever she wants her point to be, congratulations, you're her perfect viewer.

In a list of recent knife-based attacks, she is specifically calling out the man who was defending himself from a guy with a gun. That is the issue.

If you don't think details or facts are as important to whatever she wants her point to be, congratulations, you're her perfect viewer.

If you think nitpicking the minutiae of a 30-minute video without ever engaging the main point is effective debating, congratulations, you're a Men's Rights Advocate.

Okay so is the beginning of the game still not about a woman being punched in the gut and hauled off?

Fucking covered this.

I saw that. But, I still don't see how you're "No, really, it's a satire guys" viewpoint invalidates the "Her purpose in the intro is to motivate the male characters" point. I keep throwing that "It's shown next to 15 other videos of an identical scene" thing out there for a reason. It looks and feels just like the storytelling beats from over 20 years ago.

Like, I'm tired of the Double Dragon issue because it seems rather petty to try and discredit a 30-minute video by nitpicking one tiny part of it while saying absolutely nothing about the main points she brings up.

[Brentai]

All right, give me a second...

...oh jeez that's not the actual intro at ALL*.  That's some New Game+ shit.  Does she know that?

Here's the ACTUAL intro, and the entire first level for context:

Double Dragon Neon - Level 1 'Main street' Bro-op (co-op) - Jude & Joe


* At least, without the ridiculously long buildup and the freeze frame, it just looks like a dude punching a girl instead of a big flashing sign reading "THIS SHIT IS RIDICULOUS."

[Beat Bandit]

If you think nitpicking the minutiae of a 30-minute video without ever engaging the main point is effective debating, congratulations, you're a Men's Rights Advocate.

...

Like, I'm tired of the Double Dragon issue because it seems rather petty to try and discredit a 30-minute video by nitpicking one tiny part of it while saying absolutely nothing about the main points she brings up.

Let me say this one more time so you don't have to actually read posts. I am only mentioning that specific detail because it is the one I am most aware of and thus comfortable with bringing up.

You may notice that I haven't said anything about how she mentions that Mario 2 doesn't count as having Peach as a character because it was a last-minute change to make the game more appealing to a wide audience that included her, but when the same thing happened years later to deny a female lead it's sexist. Nor that she's very definite about her disgust that women are always captured to be rescued where as men save themselves. Despite, you know, the Metal Gear series existing. I don't call these things out because there are tons of variables and opinions that are easy to take things off base.

So back to the 'main point' she made that things are getting worse if not staying the same. Her example? A game that is at least trying to get better, regardless of consideration of the limitations the story they were given. So yeah, I do think it's a point worth picking at.

[Brentai]

Like, I'm tired of the Double Dragon issue because it seems rather petty to try and discredit a 30-minute video by nitpicking one tiny part of it while saying absolutely nothing about the main points she brings up.

I'm glad you're tired of it.  Because it's going to happen again and again every time she brings up a game that's anywhere outside of her clearly limited area of knowledge, and maybe then you'll start to see why this is indicative of an actual issue.  Or everyone else will while sifting through your rants.

It's not that she got one thing wrong, it's that she got the one thing that wasn't extremely obvious wrong*.  It speaks to the thing that a lot of people have been worried about, which is that she's not the context expert that she acts like, and as this goes on she's in danger of piling on more and more "little misunderstandings" until the general public that she's addressing starts to get the entirely wrong idea.  At worst it will backfire and set her cause back to somewhere behind where she started, and more likely it will just bring people around to the issue but in a skewed, weird manner, like the entire parallel violence-in-games debate.  I want developers like WayForward to be able to be honest about how ass-backwards our gender politics and other issues were and are without getting all nervous that some movement out there is going to misunderstand their intentions.

Also, this is not going to help, but the very first other point I clicked to in the video while looking to see if she mentioned any other games like Neon had her saying "Zelda has never starred in her own adventure."  Which, while of course we don't like to admit it, is also wrong.  If I were random-clicking instead of watching the whole 30-minute monologue, you know, like most people, it'd be really, really easy to write this lady off as "Doesn't know what she's talking about."  Which, as Bal has mentioned several times, wouldn't be half the problem it is if not for the conceit that her words carry weight because she's literally paid to go do research on this stuff.


* In the sense that it's the only really modern or low-profile game she mentions, although after reviewing I have to grant that there's at least one other obscure title, Vigilante, which she doesn't really say much about (not that she has to).

[Mongrel]

Okay, I hadn't actually played Neon myself. After watching that video I can see that yeah, it's satire, but the only real flashing THIS IS A GAG sign is the "Aw man, not this again." line, so I can also see how someone could just take it at face-value.

[R^2]

Well, that and the air-guitar thing at the end. No game can take itself that seriously when it involves air-guitar at the end of each level.

[Mongrel]

Objection sustained.

[Royal☭]

See, but "Not take itself seriously" and "Satire" are not the same thing.

[Classic]

You still run into the problem you always have with sensitive satire like this: In the best case, your viewer understands the reference and context and gets to enjoy an in joke that makes them feel enlightened. In the worst case, you've presented something ugly to a viewer who doesn't understand the context and doesn't understand that it's meant to be a joke or absurd.

And you know, ymmv, but the lampshading doesn't change what I found uncomfortable about the scene from the arcade.

In the sense that it's the only really modern or low-profile game she mentions

To be fair, the focus of this first episode is the trope as applied to her two pet series. Apparently, the second part is about more modern examples. Not so hot on how that will roll.

[Mongrel]

An unexpected Tomb Raider article

[Ted Belmont]

Tomb Raider: Other M

[Classic]

I don't know what that's supposed to mean in this context.

[Mongrel]

Yeah, I don't get it either. :/

[Thad]

Yeah, Ted, did you read past the opening paragraphs?  Because the takeaway is that it's not like Other M at all.  It's not needless or exploitative -- the author argues that it's horrifying and haunting, but in the way that good storytelling is affecting; it makes you feel for Lara in a realistic way.  It triggered her, but in a way that led to catharsis and understanding of her own experience.

At no point did Lara break down crying and some dude swoop in and save her.

[patito]

Turns out the new tomb raider is a pretty decent game in every sense, who would have thought.

[Ted Belmont]

Yeah, Ted, did you read past the opening paragraphs?  Because the takeaway is that it's not like Other M at all.  It's not needless or exploitative -- the author argues that it's horrifying and haunting, but in the way that good storytelling is affecting; it makes you feel for Lara in a realistic way.  It triggered her, but in a way that led to catharsis and understanding of her own experience.

At no point did Lara break down crying and some dude swoop in and save her.

I CAN MAKE GLIB ONE-LINE REPLIES TOO OKAY

YOU'RE NOT MY REAL DAD

[Lottel]

Apparently you can't!