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[JDigital]

I couldn't find a general game design discussion thread, so I've started one.

Geo shared a game design principle with me several years ago that I think is very important: "skill-based gameplay". Player skill, and not random chance or character ability, is the key to success. Mastering them is difficult, but rewarding.

But when I look at tabletop RPGs, specifically D&D, there isn't a heavy skill element. There's a high random factor (d20 rolls), modified almost entirely by character generation choices.

How would you make player skill meaningful in a tabletop RPG?

[RoboticDinosaur]

Well, "skill" can't be in a tabletop RPG, or anything that isn't active time. Only "wisdom."

For example, I consider it "skill" when I pull of a manual 10 hit combo in a fighting game, or accurately shoot someone in the head in a FPS. However, I consider it "wisdom" when I know I should only run 3 of card X in my deck, that I should max out feat Y ASAP, or that I know that a boss is weak against fire.

Even if you don't agree, skill is a vague term. You might have to be more exact about what you mean.

Edit: a exception I just thought of is Sabin's Blitz from FF6. Since you have to have the skill to input the command properly, or he won't attack. Even if that isn't a active time command it still requires skill.

Edit 2: It's a shity idea, but maybe you could have a bob-it/Simon says device packaged with your game, and like a level 2 spell requires you to get 6 actions correct with it?

[Ziiro]

In playing D&D? Rewarding tactics, forethought, problem solving, and general creativity.

For example: We had a city infested with zombies. The city is made of stone, and the zombies are the only enemies. I ran the numbers and I had enough spell slots as a sorcerer to clear the streets of all of them using fireballs. I did the math on the area of a fireball, multiplied by the number of times I'd be able to cast it. Not to mention I'd be using levitate to get around over them, meaning it was basically risk-free.

In designing a system? Mechanics that allow for some (but not much) loose interpretation so that players can think of unique or interesting ways to exploit that. "I want to use my speech craft skill to talk this orc into confusion."

[R^2]

skill is a vague term. You might have to be more exact about what you mean.

"Strategy". The formulation of a cunning plan, and its following execution.

Edit: a exception I just thought of is Sabin's Blitz from FF6. Since you have to have the skill to input the command properly, or he won't attack. Even if that isn't a active time command it still requires skill.

Due to the way Sabin's Blitz input works, diagonals can be input as either direction that make up part of the diagonal. So you can do Aura Cannot by pressing down, down, left or down, left, left. Battle Dance can be put in as right, up, up, up, left, down, down, down, right, or variations of same. There's no skill involved there.

[Büge]

I thought third edition was designed by a guy who wanted player skill to matter. I'm not sure I'd want an RPG where skill edges out randomness, because then a skilled player can more easily stack the odds in his favour.

What kind of metric are you measuring "skill" by exactly? Is it the ability to manipulate numbers more adeptly? Otherwise, you're looking at a reward system that's really up to the DM.

[R^2]

Anyway, most games have at least a little luck woven into their gameplay. A game like checkers or chess is all strategy, backgammon is a combination of luck and strategy, and... uh... War is all luck. Every game that involves dice or a shuffled deck of cards involves luck, it's what they're for. You find a game on the spectrum you like and play that.

So a pure-strategy RPG would involve... no dice. The only one I can think of is live-action Storyteller, where people forego dice in favor of paper-rock-scissors to resolve what would normally be rolled.

Then you have the strategies for psyching out your opponent in paper-rock-scissors to contend with, I guess.

[JDigital]

Even if you don't agree, skill is a vague term. You might have to be more exact about what you mean.

Skill in videogames is that degree of mastery which belongs to the player. It's being good at the game. When you win, you know that YOU won, not your character, and not the RNG. That can be knowledge as well as some physical skill (controller input, say).

Tabletop RPGs don't have that element of physical skill. Rolling dice can let you feel like you're taking an action, but it doesn't let you influence the outcome. You're almost like a general who can order a unit, but not influence how well they perform.

In playing D&D? Rewarding tactics, forethought, problem solving, and general creativity.

I'd like to run an oldschool dungeon crawl to see how players cope when forced to rely on these things.

I rarely see 4e played tactically/creatively, because it's well balanced so players don't have to. There's no bonus for clever play. Most powers replenish between encounters so you don't need to manage resources. You rarely win by clever choice or application of powers because they're mainly similar damage+debuff effects, and you rarely use ad-hoc abilities or rituals because they're hard to employ and less effective than combat powers.

In designing a system? Mechanics that allow for some (but not much) loose interpretation so that players can think of unique or interesting ways to exploit that. "I want to use my speech craft skill to talk this orc into confusion."

Maid RPG is big on that. You can use any attribute that you can come up with a way to use. There are very few special abilities. The game rewards you for finding creative ways to use your strengths and overcome your limitations.