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Author Topic: Fightan Games  (Read 4682 times)

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Kayin

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Re: Fightan Games
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2008, 10:39:24 AM »

Inconsistencies like that are generally annoy players. and it also doesn't address the problem of honda getting in. Half damage lets him suffer longer, pretty much.

As for HDR, it should pretty much feel like Super Turbo, only with compressed tiers. It's mostly buffs and a few little nerfs to things that were a bit mindless (Vega walldiving forever, Sagat Low Tiger Forever), but still leaves what made most top tier characters good.
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Aintaer

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Re: Fightan Games
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2008, 12:16:27 AM »

Dear Geothermal, perhaps you disunderstand the point of fighting games.  The reason why there are move input complications deals very much with the way a player can handle a specific circumstance.

What are you playing a fighting game for?  Are you doing it to just be able to battle wits or to be able to maintain enough composure and control over your motions whilst battling wits at the same time?  If former, you can play any non-timing sensitive competitive game like tactics games (which I love, by the way).  The latter offers a different challenge.

If you think simplifying moves makes a game accessible to more people, you're right, but there's always a tradeoff.  At the extreme of simplification, you come down to a reductionist problem: how do you vary moves with one button?  You trade simplicity of mechanics for a more interesting game.

So what is the point of having Necro Okotta Baai's input being 34123646+P instead of a simple 6+P?  It introduces a higher cognitive load to perform the action such that it would succeed, knowing the penalties for failure are high.  This contends with the amount you must already be paying attention to, and thus 1) requires the player to think ahead instead of input on reaction, 2) introduce an orthogonal payoff matrix regarding successful or unsuccessful execution in your particular circumstance, 3) gets the player respect on well-timed successful executions that plays to the tertiary and psychological reward.

However, designers thought such a complication on a move best used for a counter was overmuch, and simplified it to 632146+P.  As such, this move is no longer as awesome to see as was before.

Also, QCF timings in Guilty Gear range from pretty forgiving (6+ frames what) to pretty much you gotta do it just right (2 frames).  If you ask me, it's hell of a lot harder to muscle-memorize QCF timings than move inputs.  I could not use a single super and still be doing technically challenging things.  Skill is not measured in supers.
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Saturn

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Re: Fightan Games
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2008, 01:19:18 PM »

  As such, this move is no longer as awesome to see as was before.

Unless you are a big doof like me and could NEVER FUCKING HIT WITH IT DUE TO CRAZY ASS COMMAND..

on another note, It often seems to me that any character with mostly charge attacks (like chun-li's spinning bird kick) gets kinda fucked when fighting against a character with more typical QCF/HCF moves.

does anyone else notice this or am i just retarded?
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François

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Re: Fightan Games
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2008, 01:45:47 PM »

Charge attacks often have exceptionally fast start-up to counter this, so it's never been a big deal to me. After a while, you get used to the timing, and preparing a charge while you're doing other things becomes second nature.

Besides, once the charge is done, the usual "single direction + button" activation is quicker than a QCF.
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Thad

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Re: Fightan Games
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2008, 01:52:22 PM »

Ryu beating Honda 80% of the time isn't useful information. Knowing though the high payoff for Ryu to spam hadoukens on the other handis relevant. It's low risk and high payoff over a longterm.

But this isn't something you need a fucking chart to know.  Ranged attacks against a guy who doesn't have any and who is not particularly agile...?  A player with even a vague understanding of the characters' movesets could figure that one out.

Most people won't know Ryu can beat Honda's ass. They'll just get frustrated and hit people over the head with their controller.

By "most people" are we referring to people who have never played Street Fighter before?
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Kayin

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Re: Fightan Games
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2008, 10:04:15 AM »

Ryu beating Honda 80% of the time isn't useful information. Knowing though the high payoff for Ryu to spam hadoukens on the other handis relevant. It's low risk and high payoff over a longterm.

But this isn't something you need a fucking chart to know.  Ranged attacks against a guy who doesn't have any and who is not particularly agile...?  A player with even a vague understanding of the characters' movesets could figure that one out.

Most people won't know Ryu can beat Honda's ass. They'll just get frustrated and hit people over the head with their controller.

By "most people" are we referring to people who have never played Street Fighter before?

Well thats what I was saying. A chart doesn't mean much. It's the how and the why thats important. People try and balance thing on the chart level, which is not only detacted from the actual game, but the most distilled information that exists.

As for people know, they might be able to guess with 'basic' reasons like you did, but thats not always true, nor do they understand the 'true' reasons. It's not true in CVS2 for example. Or I could say Zangief has advantage over Ryu. Or something whacky, like the fact that Vega owns Guile in pretty much every game somehow.

Though it's still easier to use Ryu vs Honda as it's an easier to grasp example. :(

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