Topic: Worst Batman Thread Ever (Read 48181 times)

Thad · « **Reply #500 on:** July 19, 2012, 01:51:19 PM »

io9 talks to the producers of Beware the Batman. There's talk about the physics design for the CG, and about not using any established Batman villains.

Büge · « **Reply #501 on:** July 19, 2012, 06:47:23 PM »

Wow, that's pretty brave. Batman's rogues gallery is an integral part of his mythos. The villains had better be memorable and distinct, or else they're just going to end up with the "well, that was good, but it would have been better with ________" reaction.

Thad · « **Reply #502 on:** July 19, 2012, 07:49:46 PM »

I like Professor Pyg, but given that we're talking about a children's cartoon he's going to have to be an entirely different character.

All things considered, though? TB&TB was mostly Batman fighting other characters' rogues. Joker showed up in a few episodes but wasn't nearly as major a villain as in previous iterations, while Two-Face, Black Mask, Ra's, and Penguin got maybe an episode each and most of them were still not the focus of that episode. Catwoman was in that Birds of Prey ep and a handful of others.

Hell, if we go back to Batman: TAS, THAT actually didn't emphasize the classic rogues much, aside from Joker. Catwoman and Two-Face had a smattering of appearances, but Penguin and Riddler weren't really in that many episodes (Riddler was used well in his couple of appearances, Penguin was not -- until the Iceberg Lounge in the second series). Mr. Freeze was a reasonably well-known character but was given a completely new origin story; Clayface was a more obscure rogue and was almost unrecognizable from the various comics versions. Ivy wasn't really a well-known character at the time, and I don't think Scarecrow was either (was he on Superfriends? I forget), and Croc and Scarface were both pretty recent characters at the time and not well-established at all. Harley, of course, was brand new.

Anyway. All that to say, I don't expect the series to go on TOO long without Joker showing up. If he isn't in season 1, I wouldn't be surprised to see him in season 2.

(Afterthought/tangent: and while Batman '66 has arguably the definitive version of the Classic Batman Rogues -- four of the Big Five, at any rate -- it upsets the pecking order. Burgess Meredith as Penguin and Frank Gorshin as Riddler overshadow Cesar Romero as Joker and Meriwether/Newmar/Kitt as Catwoman. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Romero, Meriwether, Newmar, and Kitt -- to say nothing of the shit-ton of other amazing guest stars over the course of the series (Vincent Price as Egghead! Liberace as Fingers! Milton Berle as Louie the Lilac!) -- but really it was all about Meredith and Gorshin.)

Thad · « **Reply #503 on:** July 31, 2012, 03:42:48 PM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QF8fFQkJk8

And just look at the loving care DC has put into this project.

I love that somebody got paid for that.

Ziiro · « **Reply #504 on:** August 02, 2012, 09:37:04 AM »

Thad · « **Reply #505 on:** August 02, 2012, 11:11:23 AM »

Interesting cross section. Wonder why they chose those specific ones (and how they're cited -- I'm sure the "Burton" one predates the movie, the "Vengeance" one is Timm's version from The New Batman Adventures, the Legends of the Dark Knight one looks a lot like the one on the gray-and-black costume in DKR, etc.).

NexAdruin · « **Reply #506 on:** August 08, 2012, 04:31:05 PM »

I just finished reading Batman: The Dark Knight Returns. That was one of the best reading experiences I've had to date. I'll be checking out Year One soon as well. Are there any other really good Batmans that I should look for in printed form?

Thad · « **Reply #507 on:** August 08, 2012, 05:28:23 PM »

I think that the earliest stuff (published as Batman Chronicles) has an undeniable charm despite its rough edges. Mad Love and Other Stories, and Harley and Ivy, are pretty good little collections by Dini and Timm (and a few other TAS alums, in the former case). Batman: Year 100 isn't about Bruce but it's a good solid dystopian-future Batman story, and Kingdom Come and The New Frontier are more general DC Universe stories but feature Batman pretty prominently. They're both sort of Silver Age throwbacks by people disappointed in the state of comics around the turn of the century; Kingdom Come is set in a dystopian future and is beautifully painted by Alex Ross; New Frontier is set in an idealized past and is pleasingly cartooned by Darwyn Cooke.

I think Grant Morrison's run has been fantastic but it's long and involved and delves so heavily into obscure stories from the '40's and '50's that it needs annotations. It's kind of an investment. If you were just to dip your toes in I'd say check out Batman and Robin, which is kind of the middle act and takes place when Bruce is dead (he gets better) and Batman and Robin are Dick and Damian (Bruce and Talia's son).

The Killing Joke, by Alan Moore and Brian Bolland, is widely regarded as the definitive Joker story. I have some issues with it, and so does Moore himself -- it's a really grossly violent story that relies heavily on pure shock value -- but it also has some really great little character moments.

Niku · « **Reply #508 on:** August 08, 2012, 05:44:50 PM »

Which reminds me, did we talk about the Batman porn parody that incorporates elements of the Killing Joke into it? because that is a thing

NexAdruin · « **Reply #509 on:** August 08, 2012, 05:47:23 PM »

I saw the killing joke on amazon but didn't order it. I don't know if Alan Moore is good or not I only know that I really liked Watchmen. Was Watchmen a fluke? Is Moore the George Lucas of comics?

Edit: Well anyway I've got year one and the killing joke ordered and on the way. they'll be here in about a week I guess.

Thad · « **Reply #510 on:** August 08, 2012, 07:09:19 PM »

It's...a complicated subject.

Most people pretty much love Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Killing Joke, and Swamp Thing.

I would submit that From Hell is also pretty fantastic. It's also the single most violent thing I have ever read; it is after all about Jack the Ripper and Moore is not a guy who pulls punches.

League of Extraordinary Gentlemen seems a bit polarizing; I like it but definitely think the point of diminishing returns has set in. A lot of it's down to whether you like O'Neill's art style; I do.

Top 10 was pretty great. And as Kids' Comics it's a whole lot more fun and upbeat than most of his stuff.

I've never read Marvelman/Miracleman because it's been out of print for ages due to a rights SNAFU. Marvel owns the rights now and is supposed to get the damn thing reprinted and, hopefully, continued (by Gaiman), but it hasn't happened yet. But it's widely regarded as Moore's original breakout hit.

And, you know, nobody bats 1.000. Moore's written some stuff that's mediocre or bad or painful to read. Last year's Neonomicon stands as one of the few comics I have ever had to quit reading because I couldn't stomach it. Can't say I'm crazy about Lost Girls either.

A lot of people think he's past his prime and I'm inclined to agree, but I think he still puts out decent work.

...back to the subject of Batman:

You know what else is pretty great? Knight and Squire. It's a book from the past year or two by Paul Cornell and Jimmy Broxton about the British Batman and Robin and their quirky friends and enemies.

And while I'm on the subject of not-quite-Batman stories: my all-time favorite Batman arc is probably Astro City: Confession, by Kurt Busiek, Brent Anderson, and Alex Ross.

Astro City is a bit of a superhero pastiche (and one of my favorite comics ever). Confession, specifically, is the story of Brian Kinney, a young adult who moves to Astro City because he wants to meet a superhero and train as a sidekick. Ultimately he winds up apprenticed to the Confessor, a Catholic-themed superhero. As the Confessor and Altar Boy, they form a pretty clear Batman and Robin analogue, but the story veers off in rather a different direction from there.

Anyhow. I'm sure I'll think of more as I go and so will other folks, but those are a couple of my favorite Batman stories that don't actually have Batman in them.

Ocksi · « **Reply #511 on:** August 08, 2012, 08:00:00 PM »

Dini's run on Detective a few years ago was pretty outstanding. I want to say the best of it was the (off the top of my head, numbers may be wrong) 834-835 two-parter, but there were some really great ones in the 810-817 range (again, if my numbers are good).

Also in Detective over recent years, the Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader by Gaiman was really good, but I've heard others think otherwise.

On Moore, there's a really good collection of DC one-shots from him, with great Green Lantern and Superman stories that are really some of his very best stuff. Promethea was also a very good book.

Royal☭ · « **Reply #512 on:** August 08, 2012, 08:07:12 PM »

Promethea was good, but often veers into "Alan Moore talks about how much he loves magic." Top Ten was particularly good work, focusing on his views of superhero works and attaching that to noir crime stuff. Tom Strong is Tom Strong and is amazing.

As for Batman, anything set in the 70s by O'Neil is pretty good. Thad mentioned Year 100 but that's Paul Pope so I'm going to read it because Paul Pope. RIP is good, but may be confusing (I know a lot of Grant Morrison and Batman, and I found it confusing at times). Otherwise any story were Scarface or Killer Croc doesn't appear is a good bet.

Thad · « **Reply #513 on:** August 08, 2012, 08:31:39 PM »

Quote from: Ocksi on August 08, 2012, 08:00:00 PM

Dini's run on Detective a few years ago was pretty outstanding. I want to say the best of it was the (off the top of my head, numbers may be wrong) 834-835 two-parter, but there were some really great ones in the 810-817 range (again, if my numbers are good).

Good choice! Meant to mention those. I think it gets pretty bad once Hush shows up but prior to that it's great.

(And has a pretty good Scarface!)

Quote from: Ocksi on August 08, 2012, 08:00:00 PM

Also in Detective over recent years, the Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader by Gaiman was really good, but I've heard others think otherwise.

Yeah, that's another one I thought to mention but I know it's kinda polarizing. I liked it but I think it peaked early (with a story that was actually Busiek's idea, not Gaiman's at all).

Quote from: Ocksi on August 08, 2012, 08:00:00 PM

On Moore, there's a really good collection of DC one-shots from him, with great Green Lantern and Superman stories that are really some of his very best stuff. Promethea was also a very good book.

There are a few different versions of that out there; I've got one called The DC Universe Stories of Alan Moore. It's got most of what he did but not Killing Joke or Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? I think there's a version now that has those two in there too.

Only Batman story I remember in there is For the Man Who Has Everything (and for my money the animated version is actually better), but man it has several of my all-time favorite Green Lantern stories. Can't remember the title of the one with the F-Sharp Bell but I friggin' love that one; used it in a linguistics project in college.

Büge · « **Reply #514 on:** August 09, 2012, 05:44:58 AM »

Quote from: Thad on August 08, 2012, 08:31:39 PM

There are a few different versions of that out there; I've got one called The DC Universe Stories of Alan Moore. It's got most of what he did but not Killing Joke or Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? I think there's a version now that has those two in there too.

Only Batman story I remember in there is For the Man Who Has Everything (and for my money the animated version is actually better), but man it has several of my all-time favorite Green Lantern stories. Can't remember the title of the one with the F-Sharp Bell but I friggin' love that one; used it in a linguistics project in college.

"In Blackest Night". You know, the edition of The DC Universe Stories of Alan Moore that I've seen in Chapters has both of those stories in it. Maybe they updated it?

Thad · « **Reply #515 on:** August 09, 2012, 07:03:43 AM »

Slightly different titles. Mine is actually Across the Universe: The DC Universe Stories of Alan Moore; the new edition is DC Universe: The Stories of Alan Moore.

Anyway. A couple good single-issue stories that are available in collections:

Planetary/Batman: Night on Earth, collected in Planetary: Crossing Worlds.

Planetary, by Warren Ellis and John Cassaday, is a story about three adventurers who call themselves "archaeologists of the unknown"; they explore the secret history of the world, which largely involves working their way through various incarnations of pulp fiction, from Doc Savage to John Constantine. In a lot of ways it's like X-Files, except instead of a government organization they're a private corporation.

In Night on Earth, they're summoned to Gotham and encounter it in a state of flux between realities. Batman shows up but he keeps changing to different versions of himself from throughout his history.

There are two other stories in the collection, and I suppose both cursorily involve Batman in some way.

One is Planetary/JLA: Terra Occulta. It's an Elseworlds story that casts Planetary as the villains; in this universe, instead of exploring weird stuff for its own sake, they're exploring it in order to Rule the World. A non-costumed Clark Kent, Brue Wayne, and Diana Prince have been leading an underground resistance and are finally ready to fight back.

Lastly (well, actually firstly, but I'm mentioning it last) is Planetary/Authority: Ruling the World: This is a sort-of team-up book between Planetary and Ellis's other, bigger book of the time. The Authoity is essentially a JLA analogue run by left-wing militants. The breakout characters are Apollo and Midnighter, who are typically described as "Superman and Batman as a gay couple." As the oldest of these stories I remember it the least, but I do remember the conceit that it's a "team-up" book where the two teams never actually cross paths.

Aaand the other great single-issue Batman story that's available in a collection that I thought of is the Batman/Spirit crossover by Darwyn Cooke, which is available in his first Spirit trade.

The Batman in the story is very much based on the version from TAS (though Robin is most definitely the 1960's version), and since Cooke was one of the artists on that series the whole thing largely feels like a lost episode. It's a good, fun teamup book, and has the sense to use the similarities between Gordon and Dolan as a springboard for the plot.

The other books in that collection are Batman-free but thoroughly enjoyable nonetheless; I loved Cooke's version of The Spirit. Mostly they're standalone, done-in-one individual stories, and they're designed to be accessible to new readers who have no idea who the fuck the Spirit is.

TA · « **Reply #516 on:** August 09, 2012, 07:20:49 AM »

Quote from: NexAdruin on August 08, 2012, 05:47:23 PM

I saw the killing joke on amazon but didn't order it. I don't know if Alan Moore is good or not I only know that I really liked Watchmen. Was Watchmen a fluke? Is Moore the George Lucas of comics?

Edit: Well anyway I've got year one and the killing joke ordered and on the way. they'll be here in about a week I guess.

Basically, the more editorial control he's under and the less of Alan Moore Crazy he's able to insert, the better. Which is why stuff like Killing Joke or Watchmen is good, but the entirely standalone indie stuff is borderline unreadable.

Thad · « **Reply #517 on:** August 09, 2012, 10:09:29 AM »

I dunno, I got the impression he had pretty significant creative control at Image and Wildstorm. The LP notwithstanding.

NexAdruin · « **Reply #518 on:** August 13, 2012, 12:52:51 PM »

Alright, I just read The Killing Joke and Batman: Year One. They both seemed short after reading The Dark Knight Returns, but they were still good. The Killing Joke really didn't seem that shocky to me. Was it more shocking during the time? I can only assume I'm missing some kind of context.

I think I prefer Miller's Batman to Moore's. Moore's Batman is almost too optimistic, as if he can talk sense into the joker and get him to stop.

Thad · « **Reply #519 on:** August 13, 2012, 01:18:13 PM »

Well, I mean, the shock is in the choice of dealing horrific physical violence against a female character solely to provide motivation for the male principals in the story.

That and the ongoing debate as to whether he actually raped her or not. (I'm in the "No, he just shot her in the spine, stripped her naked, and took photos" camp. Which is ever so much better.)

It probably bears adding that it was not originally intended as canon but then somebody at editorial decided it was and Babs spent the next 25 years in a wheelchair.

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Author Topic: Worst Batman Thread Ever (Read 48181 times)