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Author Topic: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread  (Read 10598 times)

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Royal☭

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2008, 08:08:35 PM »

Bane would be a good, logical follow up to this one.  As a link Thad posted pointed out, his entire setup is around the drug trade in Gotham, which was lightly touched on at the beginning of the film.

As for Rachel Dawes, I actually liked her more with Gylenthal playing her.  Much more.  Turns out I hated Katie Holmes.  Who knew?  And I can see why they went with her rather than an established batgirl, so they could blow her up if they needed.

I also thought it was odd that they chose to focus on Gordon's son when that very part would have been perfectly fitted for his daughter, who mysteriously showed up at the end of the film.

I loved this Two-Face story a lot more than the Batman TAS one, actually.  Harvey was a true grit, bold DA who was actually struggling to be the good person he wanted to be.  The fact that he was one of the few people to realize the true good in Batman spoke a lot for his character.  Plus they didn't do anything like "Big Bad Harv", instead focusing on a more realistic descent into madness with the character.

Also Ledger is the best Joker ever.  Better than Nicholson and Hamill.  He gets the joking insanity bit pitch perfect.  The scene where he steps outside the hospital and hits the detonator a few times while wearing a nurse's outfit was brilliant.  And the way he carried himself while being one step ahead of everyone seemed natural.  It's a shame Ledger literally gave his all to this role, as you can see they planned for him to go further (He was actually going to turn Harvey Dent into Two-Face in the third movie, but they wisely decided to compress the two stories).

Doom

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2008, 08:25:12 PM »

My theater CHEERED when Gordon revealed himself at the end of that prison escort scene.

The trouble with Clayface and Mr Freeze as villains is that they work best with tragedy and more importantly, they've been done to perfection already. It's really hard for us to go for another tragic villain after ol' Harvey Two-Face. Bringing him back is.. iffy. Two-Face seems to sort of lose his zing after an amazing origin story(Hell, look at "Big Bad Harvey." He gets pretty deranged for a children's cartoon show and really cuts loose. Everything after that origin two-parter is a bit campy.) What's he going to do, kidnap Gordon's family again? Bury the guy or get a fresh scoop.

While we're up here speculating.. remember that craven little lawyer shit, who discovered Bruce's identity? I'm betting the farm that he comes back as the Riddler. Wild speculation at it's finest, folks.

Bane/Penguin has my vote.. not only do you coordinate the mobsters and the drug business, but they're quite a bit more reasonable to keep with the tone of villain this trilogy wants. Bane could give you a pretty tense Terminator style guy, and the Penguin.. well, maybe this time they'll realize he doesn't need to be a literal mutant.

Ledger was an incredible Joker for what he shot for: a legitimate psychopath. Hamill is my favorite Joker ever, but here's the stitch, I realize he's a different flavor of fuckawesome. I really loved the subtle nod to B:TAS Joker with the Mad Dog references and the trained dogs, or am I simply hoping too hard? Hyenas and all that rot.

Unfortunately, he's dead now, so how does this resolve at the start of the third? I think they'll inject some much-needed reality into the Movie-verse and use an off-screen death penalty.
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Royal☭

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2008, 08:28:24 PM »

Well, actually, since the Joker is literally insane he'd just be locked up in Arkham.  They don't actually need to address anything.  Also, the guy who discovered Batman's secret identity is not named Edward Nigma.

TA

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2008, 10:32:07 PM »

This series of Batman movies has been heavily about realism, I thought.  Ra's al Ghul's magical microwave ray aside, it's been heavily grounded in people doing broken things for broken reasons - the Joker, for all of his being the Joker, never had Laughing Gas or a gun that shoots flags or any such things, relying simply on guns and explosives and insanity.

Based on that, I really, REALLY doubt we'll see a Clayface or Mr. Freeze or resurrected Ra's or anything like that.  It's just completely not in tune with the universe that's being created here.  Even Bane is kind of pushing it.

Basically I agree with Arc.  A Riddler done well, without the whole question mark suit and retardation thing, and Catwoman?  Oh hell yes.  At this point, I have pretty much absolute faith in Nolan's team to be able to do these things right.
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Brentai

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2008, 12:07:23 AM »

I'm just saying, Clayface would work if he's not literally a giant clay monster.  There's so much you can do with "face-sculpting-clay-that-turns-you-into-anyone-you-like" that would work in the "real-world" Batman, and it's no more ludicrous than the fear gas, microwave gun and Bat-ATV.

Turning the lawyer guy into a villain would be silly - he's too incompetent and would have to have some seriously ass-backwards motivation for it.  What would be amusing is if Fox realized that Wayne could rebuild the Bat-Omniscient-Cellphone-Sonar-Matrix (okay, add that to the list of ridiculous tech) anytime he wanted and went rogue.

Going down the Rogues' Gallery... Mad Hatter might be fun, if played straight enough... Scarface, eh, maybe... and, er, that's it.  I really don't want to see Poison Ivy or Mr. Freeze anywhere, since they're both the sort of superpowered asshole that Batman should never be bothering with.
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Disposable Ninja

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2008, 12:21:01 AM »

Mr. Freeze is totally doable. He just requires a bit of re-imagining, is all.
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TA

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2008, 01:27:46 AM »

Bat-Omniscient-Cellphone-Sonar-Matrix

Ehhh, I found that pretty believable, and not really at all in the same vein as the Microwave Gun.  I mean, if you think about it.  Is it feasible to build a sonar imager into a cell phone?  That's really the only hurdle I can see, and I don't know enough about cell phone architecture or sonar function to automatically rule that impossible.  Given that it is at least borderline ... has Waynetech R&D been working on this for probably quite a long time, given the amount of time that appears to have passed between films, and have had plenty of opportunity to build this into the phones they make?  And is it really likely that many people in Gotham, of all places, have a cell phone that isn't Waynetech manufacture?

Fear gas, as presented, seemed entirely down-to-earth to me.  Psychoactive chemicals absorbed through the lungs aren't exactly unheard of.
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Brentai

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2008, 01:39:55 AM »

...and then he uses it for one SWAT operation, after which he apparently rigged it to self-destruct.  Right.
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TA

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2008, 01:49:41 AM »

Seemed to me like Batman knew how absolute of power that thing would be, did not trust himself with it, and so set it up as a "In case of emergency, break privacy" thing and left the use and lifespan of it up to the only person he could really trust with it.  That was a thing to be mothballed until it was absolutely necessary that it be used, and not kept running once that immediate and specific need was gone, simply because of the temptation.

I don't think that Wayne has the ability to rebuild that matrix without going through Waynetech to do it, and Fox is going to be checking.  Even assuming the "Lucius Fox" command didn't send out a firmware patch to kill the functionality.

There have been Batmen in media that would have no hesitation about just having that sort of network up and running, but I really don't think Nolan's version is being presented that way.  I think that this Batman would go out of his way to not take the practical-but-wrong path.
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Cthulhu-chan

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2008, 03:06:18 AM »

Also, the guy who discovered Batman's secret identity is not named Edward Nigma.

You're right, he's Mister Reese. :oic:
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Niku

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2008, 05:51:13 AM »

MISTER FRED REESE PERHAPS?

FREESE CONFIRMED FOR 3.
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Cthulhu-chan

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2008, 05:58:09 AM »

Mr. Reese.  Mysteries.  Eh?  EH?
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Brentai

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2008, 10:25:05 AM »

Okay the pun names in canonical Batman are bad enough if they start making up new ones I'm gonna have to call bullshit on this whole new "serious" Batman.
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Thad

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2008, 02:08:48 PM »

Yeah, pretty sure Two-Face is alive.  Whether or not we'll actually see him again is another matter, given supe-movies' habit of throwing out used villains for brand new ones.

My stepfather and I are placing bets on Penguin for the big bad of the next one.  He's the only obvious one who fits, though I'm personally rooting for Clayface.

They may not go obvious (remember the first movie); I'm rooting for Clayface too.

And of course, as Arc noted, Lucius's remark about cats.

Anyhow: overall I got the impression that this was the Empire Strikes Back of the new Batman series - that interim movie where the good guys get their asses kicked to shit and back and manage only a token victory at the very end - which implies that there may just be a beginning, middle, and end to this.  Probably not, but if so then that raises the question - how's it going to "end" in the next 2-3 hours?

This is actually a great place to bring in Robin.  Batman may be at his lowest and his darkest.  Robin is an anchor, someone who brings him back from the brink.

Also, what's up with all the importance around Gordon's son, and Barbara Unnamed Gordon having nothing but a cameo?  Is there some significance that one of you comic book reading assholes can explain to me?

I don't think the daughter is Barbara; she's too young.  My guess is Barbara's somewhere else at this point (college?  How old is Gordon supposed to be here?  Oldman himself is 50).

As Rico noted, emphasis on Gordon's son is from Batman: Year One, though he was an infant in that one.

I'm rooting for Charles Victor motherfucking Szasz.

I saw a trailer for that movie.

Riddler is the Nolanverse villain. It allows him to play around with flashbacks, and the Riddler isn't some beast of special effects. Just imagine the virals that would come along with that motherfucker. He also provides ample opportunity to delve into the Dent cover-up, and the loose threads dangling around concerning Batman's true identity.

Some of the Joker's clues -- the fingerprints that required heavy ballistics analysis to discover, for example -- were complex to the point of being more Riddler-appropriate.

...Anyway.

High-level: the way this plays with archetypes, icons, mythology and philosophy was really what made it special.  Batman, Joker, Harvey are all presented as inspirational figures -- Batman and Harvey for humanity's better aspects, Joker for its worse.

Joker and Two-Face give us two different depictions of the devil -- the Joker is the snake, bringing others down to his level, while Two-Face is the fallen angel, the brightest star who falls the farthest.

And through all this, the characters examine these things, examine their purpose as symbols, but it never gets didactic; it clearly has implications beyond the fourth wall, but they never break it.

The Joker combines the best of many different versions of the character.  The taunting hints, the naming names of who he's going to murder, and then pulling it off anyway even when they're surrounded by police protection -- that's straight out of Batman #1 from 1940.  The suggestion of a symbiosis with Batman, the indication that they could not exist without each other, is from Dark Knight Returns.  And his motivation to bring heroes down to his level is Killing Joke.  I'm sure there are some other influences in there (I never read Long Halloween), but those were the ones that leapt out at me.

The ending recalls Watchmen, except where Veidt's sacrifice for the greater good was a few million human lives, Batman's sacrifice is of himself, his own reputation and relative safety.  It's all about platonic truths and the heroic ideal, the notion that a myth can be greater than a man.  (Tangentially, this is why Bubba Ho-Tep works so well: we would rather see Elvis as a heroic figure than the man he really was.)

And finally, all right, on to Rachel.  There's been plenty of talk in the thread about what a worthless character she was, but everybody seems to have waited for me to show up to bring up the 600-pound gorilla in the room: women in refrigerators.  As I've noted more than once in the past, I fucking loathe stories where the girlfriend dies simply to motivate the male hero (or villain) -- and in this case, neither the hero nor the villain NEEDED that motivation.  I believe this is the only real sour note in the movie.  I find it distasteful, and I feel both movies would have been greatly improved if her character had never existed.

Also: I quite liked how they played with some of the previous movies.  The Joker's fall from the rooftop was very reminiscent of the ending of Burton's version, but this time, Batman saves him -- because this Batman doesn't kill.

Anyway.  All in all an excellent movie.  I'll probably have more to add later; I'm still chewing on it.
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Brentai

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2008, 02:37:40 PM »

This is actually a great place to bring in Robin.  Batman may be at his lowest and his darkest.  Robin is an anchor, someone who brings him back from the brink.

Do we really need Robin?  The Goddam Batman really gets along fine without him, overall.

More specifically, I don't think we'll see Robin in the next movie because this trilogy (I'm pretty convinced it is a classical trilogy now) is pretty much all about building the stage for the known Batman saga to begin - they're still setting up Gordon's rise (though he's already commish now, I dunno where you go from there), Batman's eternal struggle with Joker, Gotham's transformation from what it was before Batman to what we accept it to be with him in it - Robin sort of enters the picture late, after that all happens, so he's outside the scope of the next movie.  At least I hope.

Quote
I don't think the daughter is Barbara; she's too young.  My guess is Barbara's somewhere else at this point (college?  How old is Gordon supposed to be here?  Oldman himself is 50).

Isn't Barbara usually depicted as college-age?  If you assume a nice round decade before this movie and the "usual" Batman timeframe, his daughter could conceivably be 16-18 when Robin and Batgirl start running around.

Quote
And through all this, the characters examine these things, examine their purpose as symbols, but it never gets didactic; it clearly has implications beyond the fourth wall, but they never break it.

The symbolism is both completely obvious to the biggest idiot while at the same time not condescending.  That is something special.

Also a large black man throws a detonator out the window.   :victory:

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The suggestion of a symbiosis with Batman, the indication that they could not exist without each other, is from Dark Knight Returns.

I think this is the first time I've ever seen that meme brought up where Batman himself actually seems to understand and justify this.

Quote
As I've noted more than once in the past, I fucking loathe stories where the girlfriend dies simply to motivate the male hero (or villain) -- and in this case, neither the hero nor the villain NEEDED that motivation.

Furthering the idea that she was in this movie for the sole reason of being removed from the continuity.  Batman gets over it with all but a shrug, and Two-Face gives the sense that he's using her death as a talking point to justify being angry about what happened to himself.  With him shutting up now we can get on and pretend that stupid character didn't exist.
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Beat Bandit

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2008, 02:51:11 PM »

they're still setting up Gordon's rise (though he's already commish now, I dunno where you go from there)

He's seriously lacking in one dead wife and son(? The son dies, right? I just remember hearing about the wife, though I'm going off the 90s cartoon).
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Thad

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2008, 03:46:12 PM »

Do we really need Robin?

No.

The Goddam Batman really gets along fine without him, overall.

Disagree, for the reasons already stated.  Batman is alone, and getting alone-r.  Robin saves him from the brink.

Gotham's transformation from what it was before Batman to what we accept it to be with him in it - Robin sort of enters the picture late, after that all happens, so he's outside the scope of the next movie.

Uh, no, Robin enters the picture when there are still petty thugs on the streets running protection rackets.  It's kinda vital to his origin.

I think current DC canon says Robin showed up in Batman's third year.  As for real-life chronology, his first appearance was roughly a year after Batman's.

At least I hope.

I understand the Robin hate.  By his nature, Batman doesn't seem like the guy to have a boy sidekick, and he doesn't fit the tone of The Dark Knight.  And that's BEFORE we get into Schumacher.

But TDK is tonally different from Begins.  I'm not interested in seeing another movie that tries to duplicate what TDK did, and by all accounts Nolan doesn't want to make one.

My question is simply, where does Batman go from here?  The first movie established the character, the second led to him questioning himself and ultimately taking a fall because his is a war of ideas.  Now we see him isolated, with few friends left.  Something has to give.  He needs to find himself again.  And in most versions of the story, the key to all that is Robin.

I'm not saying it HAS to happen -- I would have liked to see Harley in TDK, but ultimately it was better for her absence.  I'm just saying that it fits thematically, and in Nolan's hands it could work.

Isn't Barbara usually depicted as college-age?  If you assume a nice round decade before this movie and the "usual" Batman timeframe, his daughter could conceivably be 16-18 when Robin and Batgirl start running around.

I don't really know Batgirl's post-Crisis origin -- and what I DO know of it is basically horrible and should be discarded anyway (as I understand it, Gordon cheated on his wife with his sister-in-law and didn't claim her until the latter died) -- , but she and Dick are still around the same age.

What age that IS starts to present a problem, and the relative ages of Bruce and Dick comprise one of the most persistent continuity headaches in the DC Universe.  But it's probably safe to assume a 10-year gap at this point.

That, of course, opens the door to the next question.  I already wondered how old Gordon's supposed to be, but how old is Bruce supposed to be?  Bale is 34, but this is a younger Batman and "younger" should mean "well under 30".

(We also know Gordon was already in the PD when Bruce's parents were killed.)

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The suggestion of a symbiosis with Batman, the indication that they could not exist without each other, is from Dark Knight Returns.

I think this is the first time I've ever seen that meme brought up where Batman himself actually seems to understand and justify this.

Well, again, it happened twenty-two years ago in what is probably the best-known Batman comic of all time, but this may be the first time I've seen it followed-through competently rather than solved with a cheap copout.

Furthering the idea that she was in this movie for the sole reason of being removed from the continuity.  Batman gets over it with all but a shrug, and Two-Face gives the sense that he's using her death as a talking point to justify being angry about what happened to himself.  With him shutting up now we can get on and pretend that stupid character didn't exist.

Doesn't excuse it.

He's seriously lacking in one dead wife and son(? The son dies, right? I just remember hearing about the wife, though I'm going off the 90s cartoon).

IIRC, in current continuity his first wife divorces him and his second is killed by Joker.

It bears repeating at this point that, with a few exceptions, the 1980's and 1990's were a very ugly couple of decades for Batman (and everyone else), post-Crisis continuity is both muddled and needlessly violent, and most of that shit is best left ignored.  Strict adherence is a bad, bad idea, and I have zero interest in another WiR scenario.

And given that I'm actually quoting dates on Robin's arrival, I should add that if he IS included, it should be for thematic significance and not for any kind of sense of obligation.
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Disposable Ninja

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2008, 05:19:59 PM »

Thad: I agree with you regarding everything Robin. There are two ways I think they should go to maintain "plausibility":

A) Bruce Wayne adopts Dick Grayson or maybe even Tim Drake, but Dick/Tim doesn't become Robin (or least it is implied that he may one day become Robin).

B) Like I said earlier in the thread: Cassandra Cain is about perfect for Nolan's Batman. You get a viable sidekick for Batman and a daughter for Bruce Wayne. Plus there's precedence for her in the established Nolanverse.
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Arc

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2008, 06:03:52 PM »

-- because this Batman doesn't kill.

He just tackles people off ledges. The fall is what kills them. :happy:

Wow, actually thinking about it, Joker did make him break his one rule.


I don't think we'll see Robin in the next movie because this trilogy (I'm pretty convinced it is a classical trilogy now) is pretty much all about building the stage for the known Batman saga to begin

Robin will not be in a Nolan/Bale movie. They've both stated this directly.


Something has to give.  He needs to find himself again.  And in most versions of the story, the key to all that is Robin.

Watching him become truly lost would be ideal. Brought to the edge again by The Riddler, and then seduced by the loose morals of Catwoman's take on vigilantism.


Bruce Wayne adopts Dick Grayson or maybe even Tim Drake

Skipping Grayson would make the fans eat their own faces off, but Drake has proven to be the more competent and interesting Robin, due to his reliance on brains over brawn. It can be done right, but it'll be done after Nolan is gone.
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Niku

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Re: Dark Knight Spoiler Thread
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2008, 06:34:58 PM »

Robin will not be in a Nolan/Bale movie. They've both stated this directly.

Venom will not be in a Raimi movie.  He's stated this directly.
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