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Author Topic: Oh! Bama  (Read 50472 times)

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PsEG

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2008, 09:53:39 AM »

She is the lowest of the fucking low; my father, a Republican who supports Obama, is upset because he is genuinely convinced that Hillary will have Obama killed.
This is right up there with my mom worrying that Bush would find a way to prevent the 2008 elections and keep himself in power indefinitely. Letting McCain become president wouldn't be much different to a Bush third term anyways, IMHO.

If someone other than McCain gets the nomination, I'm not voting.
Really, though, I've always viewed not voting in a major election as rather silly. If I couldn't support a single viable candidate on a ballot (which thankfully hasn't and won't be an issue for me thus far), I'd put a vote down for one of the really crazy choices. Not Reform, Green, or a write-in, mind you -- that's too predictable. More like a really fucking insane choice like the Prohibition Party or Constitution Party candidate. In a small precinct like mine, where 80 people at most vote, I'd enjoy knowing that anyone viewing the results would be raising an eyebrow and wondering about that one astray vote.
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Thad

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2008, 11:22:53 AM »

Everyone likes nice guys. I do too, that's one of the reasons I voted for Obama. I just think all the people who are saying they'd vote for Obama but not for Hillary, or even worse they'd vote for a Republican over Hillary, are being unreasonable.

I live in Arizona.  McCain's going to take my state no matter HOW I vote.  So why should I vote for someone I don't actually like if it's not going to make a damn bit of difference anyway?

(Note that today is different from November.  I AM voting today -- for Obama, of course --, because THAT vote DOES make a difference.)

Substantively Obama and Clinton's platforms are extremely similar, so if you're okay voting for one you should be okay voting for the other, and vice-versa.

This presupposes that Clinton's platform will be the same a year from now as it is currently.  Those of us who have been paying attention for the past fifteen years feel that this is not a reasonable thing to assume.

This is right up there with my mom worrying that Bush would find a way to prevent the 2008 elections and keep himself in power indefinitely. Letting McCain become president wouldn't be much different to a Bush third term anyways, IMHO.

At least we'd stop torturing people.

...Anyway.  On to Kazz's comments.

Aside from wondering if we need a "tinfoil hat" emote, Kazz, I'm curious as to what your opinion of Bill is.  He was every bit as calculating and poll-driven as his wife; he just managed to make it SEEM natural.  And on his watch we wound up with all kinds of nastiness.  On the discrimination side, we got Don't Ask, Don't Tell and DOMA; on the giving-our-rights-to-corporations side we got the Telecom Act, the DMCA, and more "free" trade agreements than you can shake a stick at.  (And yet he's STILL, hands-down, the best President of my lifetime.  Course, when you consider that George HW Bush is #2 and Reagan is #3, that should serve as a reminder of how low the bar is.)

Hell, Gore in 2000 was every bit the middle-of-the-road calculator the Clintons are.  He was just really bad at it.
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Kashan

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2008, 12:04:18 PM »

Everyone likes nice guys. I do too, that's one of the reasons I voted for Obama. I just think all the people who are saying they'd vote for Obama but not for Hillary, or even worse they'd vote for a Republican over Hillary, are being unreasonable.

I live in Arizona.  McCain's going to take my state no matter HOW I vote.  So why should I vote for someone I don't actually like if it's not going to make a damn bit of difference anyway?

(Note that today is different from November.  I AM voting today -- for Obama, of course --, because THAT vote DOES make a difference.)

Substantively Obama and Clinton's platforms are extremely similar, so if you're okay voting for one you should be okay voting for the other, and vice-versa.

This presupposes that Clinton's platform will be the same a year from now as it is currently.  Those of us who have been paying attention for the past fifteen years feel that this is not a reasonable thing to assume.

This is right up there with my mom worrying that Bush would find a way to prevent the 2008 elections and keep himself in power indefinitely. Letting McCain become president wouldn't be much different to a Bush third term anyways, IMHO.

At least we'd stop torturing people.

...Anyway.  On to Kazz's comments.

Aside from wondering if we need a "tinfoil hat" emote, Kazz, I'm curious as to what your opinion of Bill is.  He was every bit as calculating and poll-driven as his wife; he just managed to make it SEEM natural.  And on his watch we wound up with all kinds of nastiness.  On the discrimination side, we got Don't Ask, Don't Tell and DOMA; on the giving-our-rights-to-corporations side we got the Telecom Act, the DMCA, and more "free" trade agreements than you can shake a stick at.  (And yet he's STILL, hands-down, the best President of my lifetime.  Course, when you consider that George HW Bush is #2 and Reagan is #3, that should serve as a reminder of how low the bar is.)

Hell, Gore in 2000 was every bit the middle-of-the-road calculator the Clintons are.  He was just really bad at it.

I agree that you shouldn't need to vote for a president on that day if you know your vote won't matter.

As for Hillary's platform changing, I assume it will. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say it'll stay closer to my ideals than that of the person who's campaigning on things I disagree with.
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Thad

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2008, 12:51:30 PM »

I see Clinton and McCain as about equally likely to invade Iran, and Obama as less so.  I see Clinton as the most pro-censorship of the three (McCain's voted repeatedly for a flag-burning ban, but she fucking SPONSORED one), and while her stance on video games isn't nearly as important as her stance on war, I don't like the manipulative scapegoating of new media.  Plus there was that crap awhile back about how young people don't know the value of a hard day's work.  As far as I'm concerned she's made it clear she doesn't want anyone under 30 to vote for her, and I'm happy to oblige.

All that said, Kazz clearly hates her a lot more than I do.  I don't want to see her as President, but it'd certainly be preferable to a hypothetical third Bush term.  For one, you could count on the Republicans to put a swift end to warrantless wiretapping, signing statements, and all those other hideous abuses of Presidential power that are A-OK when their guy does them.  And Bill as an envoy to the Middle East would be pretty much a best-case scenario.  (Not to say that'd be out of the question in an Obama administration, either.  Hell, it'd be unlikely in a McCain administration, but not impossible.)

There are a few things about McCain that frighten me.  First and foremost is that he's WAY more of a right-winger than he's perceived to be.  He takes moderate stances on campaign finance, immigration, stem cell research, says he doesn't like torture, and votes against the anti-gay marriage amendment, and bam, suddenly he's perceived as a moderate.

He's not a moderate.  He's pro-war, pro-life, anti-gay, wants prayer in schools (and the Ten Commandments to be displayed in same).  Anyone wants to scope out his record, ontheissues.org seems pretty accurate and thorough from a brief read-through.

The worst thing about McCain, though, is the same problem the others have -- you don't really know where he stands.  That used not to be the case; he used to be very consistent.  But I think his beating in '00 led him to an "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality (see also: Hillary Clinton cozying up to big pharma), and where he was condemning Falwell 8 years ago, he was speaking at his university last year.  Hell, he even caved on torture and sought "compromises" with the Bush Administration that led to the Military Commissions Act.  (He didn't vote for it, but he still helped it happen.)  There are a lot of issues I've never agreed with McCain on, but I at least respected him as an honest politician; I even voted for him in '04 (another race, it bears noting, where my vote didn't matter; I think he took over 80% and I don't even remember the name of the Dem challenger).  But I no longer trust him.  I think, his big grin notwithstanding, he's become cynical and will do anything to win.

Anyway.  On the subject of Clinton and, more to the point, her pushier supporters, August has a good blog post titled Hillary, protect me from your followers.

Quote
It's clear that, perhaps latent from a year back or so when she was the "inevitable" candidate, a lot of Clinton's supporters still believe that Democrats/progressives are somehow obligated to vote for Hillary, and as a result it doesn't make any difference how mean, nasty, or berating to Obama supporters they are.

[...]

In even simpler terms, Hillary's supporters really seem to be forgetting the actual election is in November. That Hillary is the establishment candidate makes it much more difficult for Hillary supporters to motivate Obama supporters to come around than vice-versa. I'm sorry if they want to whine about that being "unfair" but, well, tough shit. They need to learn pretty much yesterday that being complete assholes to Obama supporters isn't going to be a great strategy in motivating them to vote after the primaries are over.
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S D S

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2008, 02:53:44 PM »

Well McCain seems to be pretty consistent about going to war with everyone. Forever.

Thad, yeah, this whole "eating our own" infighting I see puzzles the hell out of me.
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jennatar

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2008, 03:07:38 PM »

I see Clinton and McCain as about equally likely to invade Iran, and Obama as less so.  ....

I feel like taping this {edit: the whole thing, not just the one sentence} up in my cubicle. Thanks.
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Thad

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2008, 04:26:23 PM »

Thanks.  A lot of this is repeating myself from the old forum (and I get the sneaking suspicion even from posts I've already made here), but good to hear somebody appreciates a little review of my philosophy in this race.

Anyway, it's done, ballot cast for Obama.  And now we play the waiting game.

...

...

...Eh, the waiting game sucks.  Let's play Hungry Hungry Hippos.
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Royal☭

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2008, 04:32:20 PM »

You could re-purpose the stuff for your blog.  Unless you've been updating and Bloglines is good for jack and shit.

Arc

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2008, 07:55:24 PM »

Barack inadvertently brings a hint of Bowie into the debates:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEaS-K3j3M8
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Kazz

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2008, 10:20:31 PM »

Thad: A quick and dirty reply, more thought later.  I wasn't mature enough at the time to know what Bill was really up to; my dad was teaching me to dislike Democrats, which in turn made me like Democrats, and my final opinion of Bill was that he was an effective leader, but a shit.

I can't even stand the sound of Hillary's voice, which is fine with me, because I also can't stand anything she says.  I don't feel no ways tired.
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Arc

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2008, 07:32:46 PM »

Visited the Obama website for local information, when suddenly:

Wait a sec...

!!!

Meanwhile, his campaign garnered over $56 million in donations today, equaling surpassing Clinton's self-loan, and claimed a nine delegate win from yesterday.
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Rico

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2008, 12:30:20 AM »

I was rewatching the first season of 30 Rock the other day, and couldn't stop laughing at the Lemon line: I'll tell all my friends I voted for Obama but there's a 70% chance I'll vote for McCain.

I've always been disappointed in McCain since he probably cut some sort of deal with the GOP during the whole Kerry military record fiasco to keep quiet.  Would've considered tossing a vote his way some years ago depending on the other candidates, but he's sold out a little more as the years go on.

Really don't want to vote for Hilary, but Obama looks to be in pretty good shape after doing well enough on Super Tuesday, since he's got better odds in a lot of the later primaries.
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Arc

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2008, 05:29:01 PM »

This weekend, Big O swept Louisiana, Washington, Nebraska, Maine, The U.S. Virgin Islands, and The Grammys.

:serious: srsly
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Arc

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2008, 07:12:09 PM »

Barack is now leading in total delegates after eight straight wins, his latest being Virginia, Maryland, and Washington, DC. Despite the weather today landing somewhere between bull & shit, Obama won both the elderly, female, and latino voting blocks (three of his weakest areas).

Today also happens to be President Lincoln's birthday, and in an effort to represent the netroots, donors (old & new alike) have been sending in $5.01 (Lincoln being on both the five dollar bill, and the one cent penny, hurr). The campaign is aiming for 500,000 unique donors (not donations, donors) before the March 4th elections in Ohio, Texas, Rhode Island, and Vermont.

Lastly, today marked a turning point in the Dunkin' Donut / Krispy Kreme secret wars.
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S D S

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2008, 08:23:36 AM »

Super great analysis on one aspect of campaign critique that bugs me, too:

Quote
People are saying they are suspicious of Obama specifically because he’s charismatic. They’re treating Obama (and, in some other conversations, Clinton) as if politicians are gaming characters, where there are only a certain number of points to be allocated, and therefore a high Charisma must be balanced by disadvantage points elsewhere, so either they’ve got a lowered Intelligence or a weak Willpower or some other compensatory flaw. That’s not how it works, though. Not in real life.

...

In particular, all this focusing on Obama’s charisma is served up with a side order of “he’s a starry-eyed idealist with warm fuzzy rhetoric full of emotional appeal about uniting, but short on actual specifics and real-world plans.” I’m not sure exactly what people think University of Chicago law professors are chosen for, but I suspect that warm fuzzy rhetoric long on emotions but short on specifics isn’t real high on the checklist.

...

It’s the political equivalent of reducing him to his looks.

It reduces him to a feel-good candidate, instead of acknowledging him as a candidate we can feel good about precisely because he’s got smarts and skills, a mind and a moral center, and because he’s not afraid to sound passionate about what he believes in and what he proposes to do.
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SCD

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2008, 04:58:02 PM »

And that's why I've got beer on the line for McCain. 
 :smile:
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Norondor

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2008, 07:48:05 PM »

That's the safest bet you can make, as 1) the democrats are geniuses of failure and i sincerely doubt there is anyone they cannot lose against and 2) mccain is seen by many as being "bipartisan" which is evidently supposed to be a desirable trait in the minds of a staggering number of politically misinformed idiots. I personally fail to see how being willing to compromise the principles of the party that helped you get elected if it's politically expedient is in any way a good thing, but then again the whole political situation in this country makes me want to throw up and never stop so what the hell do i know
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Brentai

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2008, 10:24:02 PM »

Quote
They’re treating Obama (and, in some other conversations, Clinton) as if politicians are gaming characters, where there are only a certain number of points to be allocated, and therefore a high Charisma must be balanced by disadvantage points elsewhere, so either they’ve got a lowered Intelligence or a weak Willpower or some other compensatory flaw.

You can shoot down that idea pretty easily by looking at our current president.  What the hell stat does he have that rates higher than an 8?  Well, I guess maybe he's got, like, incredible dexterity or something.
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Thad

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2008, 10:45:57 PM »

I think he's maxed-out on Willpower.
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Brentai

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Re: Oh! Bama
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2008, 10:51:38 PM »



"Agree with that."
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