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[Thad]

...so hey guys, now that the thread's 18 pages long and I split off some of the "future of the industry" crap, should I bother trying to split off some of the other conversations too?  Kick-Ass could carry its own thread, Walking Dead probably could too, even stuff like Madman and Spirit may have a couple pages of posts by now.

(EDIT: Got three pages into rereading the thread and I'm going with "fuck it, too many posts talking about multiple books."  But I could still split from somewhere in the middle where posts don't do that.)

[Zaratustra]

Continuing with the Warren Ellis knob polishing, his impression of Alan Moore is great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQCtQeiDDmM

"And I feel ... POsitivelyy ............................... wooonderfuuuul."

[Thad]

And yet more Ellis:

Gravel was a pretty good mini; I'm looking forward to Book 2.

A few thoughts:

• It's very nice that the story is self-contained.  This isn't the first Gravel book, but it's the first one I picked up, and I don't feel like I've missed anything.  The only reason I even know there were earlier books is because they're advertised in the back pages; this series had a perfectly satisfying beginning, middle, and end with no need to know what came before.
• Ellis handled the plot really well for it coming down to a simple collection quest.  Each of the confrontations with the Minor Seven was unique.
• On the "How does he put so many books out at a time?" front, this one's a hell of a lot more verbose than the latest Anna Mercury or No Hero, but according to the credits he split the scripting duties.  You can kinda tell.

[Ted Belmont]

[Zach]

I hated Marvel Zombies. This is why I am utterly surprised about liking Marvel Zombies 3. How can this be?

• It is Nextwave's Machine Man versus zombies -- written by Fred van Lente in a style that isn't quite Nextwave, but far better than the first Zombies book.
• There are far fewer instances of "how does that character/power become zombified?!"
• While the zombies still crack wise on occasion, the general tone is a more accustomed "under siege" grim.
• The Conquistador. I'm a sucker for third-string heroes on third-string teams.

Nil! Let's shed the tights-n-fights/cowls-n-scowls/underwear pervert soap opera for another entry of Comics as Serious Literature.

I place Nil under the protection of The Academy because it makes all sorts of postmodern jokes and references to deconstructionism (among numerous other topics.) Iron_Mongrel already covered that side of the endorsement pretty well though, so I'll point to the German Expressionist/clip-art-inspired/gearporn art and the sheer density of the background text. Nihilopolis X (so-named for the nine other Nihilopolii that were forcibly deconstructed with explosives) is filled with posters, side-conversations that the reader only gets in snatches and fits, and little labels telling us how insignificant background characters are gluttons or perverts. It's busy, but purposefully so -- and it works.

[Zaratustra]

I am real bacon

[Zach]

Use a paper towel to remove excess grease.

[Büge]

I read through most of Tarot in one night. Every story can pretty much be summed up as:

• Tarot sees a Tarot card in a vision.
• Something bad happens.
• Tarot uses her Magick to fight whatever it is and her clothes fall off.
• Friends of the creators make a cameo.
• Problem is solved thanks to the "Three-Fold-Law."
• We all learn an important lesson about tolerance.
• Bisexuaaals!!!

It's a very... white comic. And I mean that two ways: There's no non-caucasians in the comic (although they chase Saddam Hussein in one issue). And all of the characters seem to have persecution complexes about something, e.g. being witches, having big boobs, which lover you should be with, etc. Haunted vaginas are pretty much par for the course. The author subscribes to the Stan Lee school of dialogue and plot, with a heaping helping of didactic messages which vary from episode to episode. The most common one is how everyone could live in peace if people stopped persecuting witches. But I've also seen stuff about how your body is nothing to be ashamed of, don't force someone to have sex, child predators are bad and that firemen are the real heroes.

  It's a little deeper than Marvel Adventures, but it could just be the cleavage.

[Dooly]

I read through most of Tarot in one night.

I hope you didn't suffer too much brain damage.

[Büge]

You get used to it. It's kinda like a hot shower...

[Thad]

When all's said and done, Final Crisis was pretty great.  Some damn fine writing by Morrison; dense and deep as fuck.  Kirby flair with a strong tie to the DCU and to mythology in general.

I particularly liked the Supermen of All Worlds teaming up, and that the squad included [spoiler]Apollo, Captain Carrot, and Barack Obama[/spoiler].

The last page is a great touch, too -- [spoiler]we all knew Bruce would come back sooner or later, and frankly Grant shows some respect for the audience's intelligence by acknowledging that[/spoiler].

When all's said and done, I don't know that the status quo's been shaken up all that much by this story -- it looks like stuff's pretty well back to normal at the end, with the possible exceptions of Batman still being MIA and [spoiler]the Multiverse becoming common knowledge[/spoiler].  The Fifth World and the new New Gods status quo aren't really that different from where we came in.

While Morrison's said he's sticking to his own projects for awhile, aside from Batman, DiDio's said those other two points are pretty much being kept warm for him until he feels like playing with them some more.  Frankly I'm all right with that -- it's clear Morrison's got plenty of stories left to tell in his own good time, but I'm happy to see him take a break and get back to Seaguy.

[Zaratustra]

... what? Wasn't Grant going to have more input on the DC universe post-Final Crisis? This is bullshit. His generous sprinkling of half-ideas is only going to vanish or fertilize mountains of crap just like the last two or three times they let him handle a major event.

Now, I’m sure there are many of you out there who are already firing up your “Well Duh!  Did you actually think DC would really kill Batman!  Jeez!  It was only a matter of time before he showed back up, moron!” comments.  To those with a jaded view of the world, I would like to point you to Marvel.  Now, I don’t read that many Marvel comics, but there is one thing I do know for sure - when they kill someone, they ain’t back by the next issue.

unless it's wolverine

also this is kinda like saying paris hilton is not as much of a slut as britney spears cause the tape was done with the lights off

[Zaratustra]

spoilers follow

Final Crisis #7 is the culmination of GM's tendency to compress stories and to rush the plot at the end. It's not as much of a 'story' as a loose connection of dramagic moments, like you tried to make Lord of the Rings a 30-minute movie by reducing it to the quotable lines and FUCK YEAH moments. Not only you lose a lot of the plot, you lose the context that makes those moments awesome to begin with.

The plot is more or less as follows: Checkmate evacuates people to Earth-51 - which was infected by a virus but Frankenstein single-handedly cleaned it out because that's how he rolls - as a dying Darkseid drags New Earth (Earth-0) down into the abyss; Some people kick ass at undefined moments and reasons (between them Aquaman and Barry Allen) and shield one earth or the other from Darkseid; Humanity is frozen, shrunk and placed in storage while every superhero and villain and whatever joins the effort to make a Miracle Machine; As the multiverse is about to crumble, Superman finishes Darkseid's spirit and is faced with -

- and this is where you have to read Superman Beyond or you'll just think Grant is trying to pass things he thought up while sniffing glue as high concept -

MANDRAKK, the original Monitor turned evil (which makes him basically Supersatan) and a vampire Ultraman.

Grant the last crisis already had two evil Supermen. Making the evil Superman a vampire as well is not going to help.

Anyway Nix Uotan finally gets to do something rather than wear cool clothing and leads the final charge which kills the evil man in a panel and then the Monitors are going to die except Superman uses the Deus Ex Machine to bring everything back to normality. At some point in this process most Kirby creations get shunted to Earth-51 where Jim Starlin can't ever touch them again.

... What? Oh, right, there's Batman right there at the end, isn't there. People are angry about it? There's someone above 18 that still gets riled up on last page reveals? Jesus.

It's not a plot you can follow like a string. I don't think it's even fully coherent. GM said it represents the death of time, but GM has a literary theory even for Mahnke's last minute substitution, so it's hard to say he did it on purpose. Just enjoy the moments and don't try to sew them together, as they're retconned by the end of the issue anyway.

[Mongrel]

this is where you have to read Superman Beyond or you'll just think Grant is trying to pass things he thought up while sniffing glue as high context

 

[Thad]

Nrama interview w/ GM, part 1.

Takeaways:

1. The "Batman dies in RIP AND FC" clusterfuck was a DiDio edict.  I'm going to call it a wash, because from a narrative and commercial standpoint it's a terrible fucking idea, but Batman's death in FC is much cooler than his death in RIP.

GM: I wanted to be faithful to the spirit of the King. This had to be a story of gods, of God in fact, hence the ‘cosmic’ style, the elevated language, the total and deliberate disregard for the rules of the ‘screenwriting’ approach that has become the house style for a great many comic writers these days. The emphasis on spectacle and wonder at the expense of ‘realism’, the allegorical approach...it’s all my take on Kirby.

Anyway.  Seems like there were more things that jumped out at me, but it's been a few hours since I read it and I'm pretty wiped from work.

EDIT: Oh right, wanted to deal with the Wonder Woman bit.

NRAMA: Regarding the big legends of the DCU: Superman got his mini-event, Batman took on Darkseid, Flash tries to outrun death, Green Lantern overcomes granny . . . but Wonder Woman turns out to be Anti-Life Patient Zero and spends the bulk of the series as a disfigured thrall. Why does Wonder Woman not have a comparable moment in that context?

GM: I wondered about that myself. I love what Gail Simone (especially) and other writers have done to empower the Wonder Woman concept but I must admit I’ve always sensed something slightly bogus and troubling at its heart. When I dug into the roots of the character I found an uneasy melange of girl power, bondage and disturbed sexuality that has never been adequately dealt with or fully processed out to my mind. I’ve always felt there was something oddly artificial about Wonder Woman, something not like a woman at all.

Having said that, I became quite fascinated by these contradictions and problems and tried to resolve them for what turned into a different project entirely. Partly because I didn’t want to use any of that new material in Final Crisis, I relegated Wonder Woman to a role that best summed up my original negative feelings about the character. My apologies to her fans and I promise to be a little more constructive next time around.

[Büge]

Interesting. I just read an article about how Wonder Woman is useless. Where is it... where is it...

Ah, here.

Of course it really only covers a lot of Golden Age material. Recent storylines are mentioned but not dwelled upon. It's a shame that the author didn't do more research, because I read the 80's George Perez reboot and it seemed like decent storytelling. But then again, it's a list decrying Wonder Woman. Of course it will focus on the Golden Age stuff.



I think Grant Morison is a big turd for dismantling the character... if it's as bad as it sounds. I'll read it in six months and see. I don't know, I think that a lot of authors are uncomfortable with writing Wonder Woman, thus the supposed problems Mr. Morrison has with her. They don't know how to write WW to make her look strong without turning her into a bruiser, as almost happened in the cartoon, and they don't want to make her look soft and risk alienating people who identify her as a strong icon.

Anyway, I'm curious to hear your thoughts, Thad.

[Mongrel]

It's just a shame that most of the puerile little boys writing comics only know how to write one-dimensional women.

What was that line from that one Zero Punctuation video about webcomics? 

[Büge]

That's probably one of the reasons they pushed her the other way. Nobody wants to read about a nagging harridan. Even if she's wearing star-spangled booty shorts.

[Thad]

May need to splitmerge this to the Wonder Woman thread; we'll see.

That looks pretty Silver Age to me.

I think Grant Morison is a big turd for dismantling the character... if it's as bad as it sounds.

Basically she's underutilized and her biggest contribution to the story is that she's given the Anti-Life Equation and becomes the leader of the Female Furies.  This DOES tend to acknowledge her iconic status as it was a "holy shit" moment that wouldn't have worked with any other character in the DCU, but the actual big Female Fury fight was in practice much more about Mary Marvel and Supergirl calling each other sluts.

I'll read it in six months and see. I don't know, I think that a lot of authors are uncomfortable with writing Wonder Woman, thus the supposed problems Mr. Morrison has with her. They don't know how to write WW to make her look strong without turning her into a bruiser, as almost happened in the cartoon, and they don't want to make her look soft and risk alienating people who identify her as a strong icon.

In a nutshell, people don't know how to write Wonder Woman.

Superman has this problem, but IMO Wonder Woman has it even worse.  Again, we've done this thread already, and what it boils down to is there's not as cohesive a picture of what Wonder Woman is "about" as there is for some of the other characters.

I'll admit I haven't read Simone's WW, but I admire her and she's the first person I'd trust to put out a good Wonder Woman book.

As for Morrison...I think he gave her short shrift here, but he had a hell of a lot going on in FC, and I'll reserve judgement on his views on the character until he gets that "other project" out.

In the meantime, of course, Trinity is all about distilling the Big Three down to their iconic status, what they mean and why, and is doing a pretty solid job of it.  It's not as dense a read as Final Crisis, but it's similar in how it examines superheroes as mythological figures.

[Mongrel]

Holy shit, after all this time... finally? Really?

Kick-Ass, eat your HEART out.

Has this ever actually happened before?