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[Bongo Bill]

Figuring out the exact degree to which chance should be a factor is a difficult decision. My thought of it is this: if the result of a single action can make a large difference all by itself, the outcome of that action should have a high degree of certainty; if it takes multiple actions to make an appreciable difference (like a unit dying), then there should be a low degree of certainty, so that the only way to improve the odds of making a difference is by superior numbers, sacrificing opportunities elsewhere on the map.

So if it takes one hit to kill a zombie mook, then the probability of hitting that zombie in any given encounter should either be very high or very low. If it takes ten hits to kill an atomic deathmaster ultraknight, then the probability of hitting that ultraknight should be closer to the middle.

[Detonator]

Topic splitto

Some element of chance is necessary to keep things from becoming Chess.  If the best plan always worked, nobody would use anything else, and if long shots never paid off, people would leave as soon as they became outnumbered.

There are many things that randomness can be applied to besides direct combat between units.

• Terrain
• Starting locations
• Alliances (see Diplomacy)
• Uncertainty (Fog of War)

Besides, it's retarded to imply that non-random strategies always rely on sheer numbers.  In chess, great players can sacrifice their best pieces to force a checkmate many turns later with a huge material disadvantage.  Rock Paper Scissors doesn't have randomness either, but I don't see a "best plan*".


*except rock.  nothing beats that.

[James Edward Smith]

They've changed that since I last played the game, which was admittedly a long time ago. I'm pretty sure it used to be a lot worse than that. And yes, I remember the calculator.

That said though, I know I was exaggerating, Kazz. But it seemed to me like you were defending that exaggeration. If your point is just that the game isn't actually that wacky, it just seems like it sometimes, then I accept that.

[Kayin]

Rock Paper Scissor is double blind. I think any double blind game is already many steps away from having an all purpose winning strategy.

As a note, I'm pretty darn good at RPS at times. It's amazing how predictable some people can be. But in that way, double blind games tend to be a little more on the 'prediction' side of things. If you add further incomplete information, you can be more liberal.

I don't think randomness is really ever 'needed' unless a game is incredibly simple, but it can be a buffer for the solvability of a game. In general I'd say you only need a little randomness to keep things in balance.

[Bal]

I was kidding about never playing again, but I definitely think that the Day/Night system is arbitrary, and serves no purpose.

[Kazz]

I think it is intended to force you to time your attacks and retreats.  I don't think it's an awful mechanic, but it seems extraneous and I'd appreciate a way to shut it off.

Either way, it is not so dramatic an effect that it ruins games, I don't think.  Not if you're being careful anyway.

[patito]

From what I played of Wenoth, the day and night system did it's job pretty well. If you were the undead you could amass your forces near the opposing camp at dusk so you could launch your attack at night, so it basically added to the strategy. Of course you also had to take into account your opponent's day/night bonuses for such strategies. It was pretty neat. Also, without the random factor in wesnoth the game would just depend on who had the most units at any single time.

[Detonator]

Also, without the random factor in wesnoth the game would just depend on who had the most units at any single time.

Random factors or no, that shouldn't be true in any strategy game, which by definition should let ingenuity triumph over brute force (to a certain extent).

[Kayin]

From what I hear some people are trying to redesign Wesnoth for competitive play. While I don't think anyone here is truly interested in it being competitive, it probably will address any randomness issues and so more to add to the strategy of the game by messing with the roles of units.

So if they do an okay job, it it should be good for everyone! :O

[Bongo Bill]

Also, without the random factor in wesnoth the game would just depend on who had the most units at any single time.

Random factors or no, that shouldn't be true in any strategy game, which by definition should let ingenuity triumph over brute force (to a certain extent).

Or, at least, brute force should be a strategy against which one might fail to defend, requiring ingenuity to choose the appropriate circumstance to employ it.

[sei]

Can't say that even  Super Wesnoth 2 Turbo is going to have me trying out the game.

[Kazz]

I got angry at the dice last night.  I was a long string of whiffed attacks in more than one game.  Once I had a 40% chance and missed about 8 of 10 attacks, and another time I had a 50% chance and missed maybe 7 of 9.  Not hideously outside the mean or anything, but even before I started missing a ton, I thought that having no minimum damage guaranteed by an attack could really screw one over.

I do have a decent idea... one sec.

[Kazz]

If I were in charge of the world, I'd include a "karma" mechanic into dice-heavy games.  If you have a sufficiently long string of unfortunate misses (or if your opponents score many fortunate hits), you begin to gain karma points.

Prior to a combat round, you could spend one karma point to guarantee one hit for yourself or one miss for your opponent.  Of course, you have no idea how well you would have rolled otherwise; allowing someone to spend karma after the battle would be too powerful.

If you have a lot of really good rolls, you don't get penalized, except that your opponent may gain a bit of karma from the combat.

[Bongo Bill]

Easy similar idea: replace 2d6 with a draw from a box of double six dominoes. Roll 1d6 to replace each blank domino. Replace all the dominoes when you get double blank. And, um, play a game with a heavy emphasis on 2d6.

[Kazz]

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that's very nice, bill.  go play with your toys.

[Bongo Bill]

It's good strategy to put the heavier blocks on the bottom.

[Brentai]

That's what all your mothers said.

[sei]

In other news, people still talk about using 2d10 or 3d6 instead of d20.

[Bongo Bill]

Oh! Any time you draw a domino you could give it to the pool of the other player, and vice versa!

[Kazz]

Oh! Any time you draw a domino you could give it to the pool of the other player, and vice versa!

put this idea in a new thread and explain it in detail please

(so that i can lock it.)