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Author Topic: Health Care Reform  (Read 33179 times)

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Verde

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #320 on: March 22, 2010, 03:54:14 AM »

So my girlfriend woke me up this morning to tell me she's going to have to come up with another excuse for not moving back to America now.

It's far from the perfect bill in anybody's eyes, but a whole bunch of people's lives will improve when this thing finally gets signed and made law, and I think that's enough for this to count as a victory. :victory: :hi5: :itsmagic:
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Smiler

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #321 on: March 22, 2010, 05:58:52 AM »

Teabaggers confound me. They literally have no idea what they're fighting for.

They are doing the work of their messiahs Beck and Limbaugh.
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PhilosopherDirtbike

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #322 on: March 22, 2010, 09:16:16 AM »

Teabaggers confound me. They literally have no idea what they're fighting for.

Having talked to a few of them who always attend these things when they can (one of which drove to attend the one in a nearby state) they seem to operate on a fear not of the healthcare bill but what it could potentially blossom into. At least a couple of them mentioned their belief that this wasn't about healthcare but more about destroying the middle class by forcing companies to buy health insurance for full time employees. The argument is that poor people vote democrat thus it is in the democrats best interest to make more people poor. Some real conspiracy, evil empire shit. The idea is that these companies will lay off a bunch of their full time workers to cover the cost of buying health insurance for the rest or that these costs will increase the number of people who won't be hired. The people who get layed off go on welfare and become democrats, solidifying the power base. That seems to be the most legitimate of the worries and the only thing it is missing is reptillian people from another galaxy trying to enslave us. Overall, they seem to be protesting progressive and communist bogeymen, using the bill as a focal point for their fear. That is what I am getting from them, anyways.
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Mongrel

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #323 on: March 22, 2010, 09:28:27 AM »

One of the side effects of eternal vigilance is that you start to get real twitchy after sitting in one spot and staring for 200 years.
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Royal☭

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #324 on: March 22, 2010, 09:32:49 AM »

Dammit, got my first summons to appear before a death panel today.  First going to determine whether I'm fit to live, then evaluate if I need to attend a socialist re-education camp.

Disposable Ninja

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #325 on: March 22, 2010, 10:21:50 AM »

That Brain Slug probably isn't going to help matters, either.

Or will it?
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SCD

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #326 on: March 22, 2010, 02:44:32 PM »

...my panel let me exempt and gave me this free hat...




(PDB:  The logic is based off the continuance of a welfare state to support the bureaucrats, where examples appear in Palestine, Africa (under cover of aid agencies), and near-bankrupt California.  While I do hold their version to have merit that bureaucracies are good for nurturing bureaucracy (right now, I'm fighting one of these ever-growing things and it took me 3 months and 3 doctors appointments to find out that I need a doctor's note in order to work this summer for something special, not that I'm bitter), I cannot see their underlying theory as a vote-maker for the Dem's to be valid.  While your nations GDP tells one tale, your GDI shows that the democrats should already have a huge userbase - not the case in recent byelections)

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Detonator

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #327 on: March 22, 2010, 04:18:09 PM »

Teabaggers confound me. They literally have no idea what they're fighting for.

Having talked to a few of them who always attend these things when they can (one of which drove to attend the one in a nearby state) they seem to operate on a fear not of the healthcare bill but what it could potentially blossom into. At least a couple of them mentioned their belief that this wasn't about healthcare but more about destroying the middle class by forcing companies to buy health insurance for full time employees. The argument is that poor people vote democrat thus it is in the democrats best interest to make more people poor. Some real conspiracy, evil empire shit. The idea is that these companies will lay off a bunch of their full time workers to cover the cost of buying health insurance for the rest or that these costs will increase the number of people who won't be hired. The people who get layed off go on welfare and become democrats, solidifying the power base. That seems to be the most legitimate of the worries and the only thing it is missing is reptillian people from another galaxy trying to enslave us. Overall, they seem to be protesting progressive and communist bogeymen, using the bill as a focal point for their fear. That is what I am getting from them, anyways.

Both sides believe that the other side's leaders are intentionally misleading their voter base in order to gain more power and wealth, while the voters themselves are emotionally and intellectually weak followers who don't question anything their leaders say because they truly believe their leaders have the people's best interest in mind.

That makes sense.
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Thad

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #328 on: March 22, 2010, 05:20:23 PM »

Not quite.  What was passed today was the Senate bill, exactly.  That goes to Obama to sign, and is a done deal.

The House is sending a separate sidecar bill, containing changes to this bill, to the Senate for reconciliation.

Rightright, 'swhat I meant.

About a dozen states are filing constitutional challenges.  You're the lawyer, so you can tell me if I'm talking out my ass, but here's the way I see it:

Their argument is "This is a tax on people just for living, which is unconstitutional."  Which is fucking asinine and will never pass legal muster.

I DO think there's constitutional concern over the very fact that this ISN'T government healthcare -- this isn't a tax on people at all, it's a mandate for them to patronize a specific private industry.  Which I DO think is a bad thing.

But I also don't think any Republican will ever make that legal argument.
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Royal☭

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #329 on: March 22, 2010, 06:11:49 PM »

I DO think there's constitutional concern over the very fact that this ISN'T government healthcare -- this isn't a tax on people at all, it's a mandate for them to patronize a specific private industry.  Which I DO think is a bad thing.

Just like car insurance!

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #330 on: March 22, 2010, 06:15:41 PM »

...I assume you are aware there is a difference between having to buy insurance on an object which you do not technically need to own in order to survive and having to buy insurance on your own existence.
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Saturn

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #331 on: March 22, 2010, 07:06:41 PM »

i keep hearing "BLURF DERF IT WILL COST 7% OF YOUR YEARLY INCOME" about the required insurance.

i have a strange feeling that the precentage of income that most people's CURRENT HEALTHCARE costs is more than 7%

EDIT: looks like my state's attorney general is piling onto that "YOU CANT FORCE PEOPLE TO BUY HEALTH INSURANCE" suit.
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Brentai

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #332 on: March 22, 2010, 07:22:54 PM »

2.2% of my net take, and keep in mind that I am apparently super lucky.

Anyway, fun story: at the gym in front of the treadmills today there were two TV screens set next to each other.  One was set to CNN, the other to FOX news.  On CNN, Michael Moore was badmouthing the health care bill; on FOX, Sarah Palin was badmouthing the health care bill.  By the time I was off the treadmill, Moore had slipped into proposing full-on Communism and Paling had slipped into proposing full-on Racial Purity.

The moral of this story is that the people decrying the bill on both sides are kind of insane I need to find a gym that stops spiking my blood pressure when I'm already trying to regulate my heartbeat.

Alternately start going to the gym since I seem to be the only person in America who can actually afford to get fat.
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TA

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #333 on: March 22, 2010, 07:48:00 PM »

2.2% of my net take, and keep in mind that I am apparently super lucky.

Is this individual, or from your work?  If the latter, are you counting the amount that your employer is paying for your policy?
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Brentai

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #334 on: March 22, 2010, 08:02:44 PM »

This is individual.  I'd give you the numbers but I'm not entirely comfortable with putting my exact salary information out on the internet.
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Pacobird

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #335 on: March 23, 2010, 04:00:15 PM »

Not quite.  What was passed today was the Senate bill, exactly.  That goes to Obama to sign, and is a done deal.

The House is sending a separate sidecar bill, containing changes to this bill, to the Senate for reconciliation.

Rightright, 'swhat I meant.

About a dozen states are filing constitutional challenges.  You're the lawyer, so you can tell me if I'm talking out my ass, but here's the way I see it:

Their argument is "This is a tax on people just for living, which is unconstitutional."  Which is fucking asinine and will never pass legal muster.

I DO think there's constitutional concern over the very fact that this ISN'T government healthcare -- this isn't a tax on people at all, it's a mandate for them to patronize a specific private industry.  Which I DO think is a bad thing.

But I also don't think any Republican will ever make that legal argument.

It won't work.  This is a Necessary and Proper Clause issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzales_v._Raich#Scalia.27s_opinion

The feds can appropriate whatever powers they want from the states if not doing so would make the regulation of interstate commerce impossible.  The states, for their part, can make you buy insurance; MA does just that.

(imo)


At any rate, mandating coverage the only solution that does not involve completely dismantling the insurance industry, and though you might entertain fantasies of eliminating one of the largest subsections of an industry that comprises 1/6th of the American economy, I am pretty sure your 401(k) would tell you to Fuck Right Off.

Public option would be swell, and that crazy "Republicans want you to die" dude from Florida has already submitted a bill.  I think that's a bit premature; we owe it to the skepticism to show that UHC works before we go further.  But hey, that's just me.



Incidentally, the package of benefits for which my employer pays is equal to about 18-20% of my yearly salary.  Being able to pocket the difference might be wishful thinking, though :(
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TA

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #336 on: March 23, 2010, 04:11:35 PM »

Public option would be swell, and that crazy "Republicans want you to die" dude from Florida has already submitted a bill.  I think that's a bit premature; we owe it to the skepticism to show that UHC works before we go further.  But hey, that's just me.

I feel like whatever debt we owe to that skepticism is satisfied by the entire rest of the first world over the past 50 years.  This is not new ground being tread, this is a game of catch-up, and while definitely a very good thing, this bill only gets us as far as "1880s Germany".
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Pacobird

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #337 on: March 23, 2010, 04:14:13 PM »

Public option would be swell, and that crazy "Republicans want you to die" dude from Florida has already submitted a bill.  I think that's a bit premature; we owe it to the skepticism to show that UHC works before we go further.  But hey, that's just me.

I feel like whatever debt we owe to that skepticism is satisfied by the entire rest of the first world over the past 50 years.  This is not new ground being tread, this is a game of catch-up, and while definitely a very good thing, this bill only gets us as far as "1880s Germany".

it's almost like i think liberals should be gracious and not act like entitled douchebags upon achieving their single biggest policy victory in 45 years


Let me put it this way: if 1) you believe, as I do, that America will benefit from this bill in many ways almost immediately, 2) the additional benefits of a public option will primarily focus on driving costs further down, rather than the immediate concerns of actually improving coverage and care, and 3) there are a lot of people in Congress who wanted the public option and if it could have been included in this bill, it would have, what harm is there in waiting a few years for UHC to become more popular?



As an aside, I do think it's funny how people are crying about how this is a huge corporate handout and the Democrats are totally in bed with big business as if

-this is news

-delivering insurance companies 32 million new customers, most of whom are very low income, is going to totally wash over the hit they're going to take on no longer being able to deny/adjust coverage based on medical conditions, avoid caps on premiums, avoid negotiating with parties with actual leverage, etc.

-the entire back half of the bill doesn't give a gleeful ass-fuck to the banking industry by repealing FFELP


To top it all off, Mitt Romney's political career is over.  It's a Red-Letter Day, friends!
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Thad

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #338 on: March 23, 2010, 05:26:32 PM »

At any rate, mandating coverage the only solution that does not involve completely dismantling the insurance industry, and though you might entertain fantasies of eliminating one of the largest subsections of an industry that comprises 1/6th of the American economy, I am pretty sure your 401(k) would tell you to Fuck Right Off.

Oh.  Yeah.  My 401(k).

Public option would be swell, and that crazy "Republicans want you to die" dude from Florida has already submitted a bill.  I think that's a bit premature; we owe it to the skepticism to show that UHC works before we go further.  But hey, that's just me.

Yeah, I've always thought that what healthcare needed was more deliberation.  I just can't handle the breakneck pace it's taken over the past seven decades.

it's almost like i think liberals should be gracious and not act like entitled douchebags upon achieving their single biggest policy victory in 45 years

Oh, come ON now.  It's a set of modest improvements constituting a fraction of a fraction of what we actually wanted, or what the rest of the industrialized world has already done.

Entitled?  Yeah, I guess I DO feel that way.  I feel like I'm entitled to go to a goddamn doctor, have him figure out what the hell is wrong with me, and fix it, without worrying that my annual coverage limit is going to run out before the year's half the hell over.  I see now what a douchebag I have been, what with my recent trip to the ER because the doctor thought my brain might be swelling and causing seizures.  (It wasn't, by the way.  So obviously I should have just walked it off rather than act like an entitled douchebag about it.)

Let me put it this way: if 1) you believe, as I do, that America will benefit from this bill in many ways almost immediately,

If you define "almost immediately" as 2-4 years down the road.  Or "many" as "not really very many".

2) the additional benefits of a public option will primarily focus on driving costs further down, rather than the immediate concerns of actually improving coverage and care,

Yes.

and 3) there are a lot of people in Congress who wanted the public option and if it could have been included in this bill, it would have

No.

The Democrats screwed the pooch on this from day one.  Obama stood back while Reid and Rangel dithered, they started with a compromise bill instead of asking for more than they wanted, they ceded the moral high ground and watched a popular bill turn unpopular based on lies told by crazy people, and they slobbed Lieberman's knob rather than point out that he was willing to let 150,000 people die to feed his ego.  When Obama finally DID start standing up for the bill, it was to say that well, the public option wasn't really that important, and anyway he didn't campaign on it even though it was specifically listed as part of his campaign platform.

The Democrats fucked this one up in nearly every way possible; it seems like it's a miracle that this thing passed, but that's only because they've bungled it so badly.  A year ago at this time, it was considered a foregone conclusion that a much more comprehensive bill would pass.

Oh, and they have enough votes to get the public option through on reconciliation.  But they won't, because then Republicans might accuse them of ramming an undemocratic socialist bill through Congress against the will of the people.

what harm is there in waiting a few years for UHC to become more popular?

I'll get back to you when I see the numbers on how many people died or went bankrupt while we sat back and waited.

I recently spent a Saturday as the least sick person waiting for care in the ER.  I do not recommend the experience, but it does tend to provide a certain perspective on the whole "let's just wait and see how this plays out" line of thinking.

As an aside, I do think it's funny how people are crying about how this is a huge corporate handout and the Democrats are totally in bed with big business as if

-this is news

I'll admit I haven't been keeping up with the thread, so I'll forego the strawman emote on the assumption that you are actually talking about somebody in this thread.

I do believe I have stated -- in this thread, even! -- that being totally unsurprised by something does not remove your ability to think it fucking sucks.

-delivering insurance companies 32 million new customers, most of whom are very low income,

and federally subsidized

is going to totally wash over the hit they're going to take on no longer being able to deny/adjust coverage based on medical conditions

This is possibly the single most important thing in the bill and I'm certainly not going to argue with it.

avoid caps on premiums

Is that annual, or just lifetime?

avoid negotiating with parties with actual leverage

Because if there's one thing I trust the US government to do, it's drive hard bargains with medical providers and keep costs down.  Now if you'll excuse me, I just have to check how much of the $350 I spent on prescriptions last month my insurance will cover.

-the entire back half of the bill doesn't give a gleeful ass-fuck to the banking industry by repealing FFELP

That's swell and all, but doesn't really have anything to do with the insurance industry.

To top it all off, Mitt Romney's political career is over.

Oh.  Yeah.  Mitt Romney's political career.
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Pacobird

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #339 on: March 23, 2010, 06:07:52 PM »

Quote
Quote
2) the additional benefits of a public option will primarily focus on driving costs further down, rather than the immediate concerns of actually improving coverage and care,

Yes.

Obama decided the public option isn't really all that important because it isn't really all that important.

Also, the premium caps are annual.  Will link to the language when I get a chance but iirc it's in the section about exchanges; said caps are, astonishingly, the entire point of said exchanges!



Oh, also, lolz over histrionics were not directed at anyone in this thread (unless somebody here has a blog at firedoglake or something).
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