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Author Topic: Health Care Reform  (Read 33199 times)

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Shinra

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #380 on: December 14, 2010, 04:07:50 AM »

The point of the individual mandate was, more or less as I understand it, to get rid of the excuse that 'health care costs are high because of the uninsured', who apparently get sick or injured and then hospitals get stuck writing off the bills. Of course, the argument leaves out the fact that hospitals always got tax writeoffs and subsidies for this, but whatever!

In any case, the ruling is completely irrelevant. It probably won't reach the supreme court, and if it does it'll just get thrown out. Honestly I think this is a dumb move on the GOP's part, unless they're trying to prove the supreme court are activists or something???? And even if they do, who cares? You haven't been able to vote out a supreme court justice since, what, Jefferson? Madison? The end result is that there will be an official supreme court ruling in the favor of HCR, which makes the repeal fight harder and makes other attempts at throwing it out in court virtually impossible in the future.




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Catloaf

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #381 on: December 14, 2010, 04:49:33 AM »

I'm actually hoping the that specific part of the law get's thrown out.  As there's precedent of the cost of insurance skyrocketing when mandated without added regulation of premiums.  But that was car insurance, this is way different.

Either way, this will eventually lead to something that at the very least looks like a republican victory.  Whether it's a court ruling or the bill exploding in the democrats' faces upon the inevitable legalized theft by the insurance companies from every remaining middle-class American.
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NexAdruin

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #382 on: December 14, 2010, 07:20:17 AM »

I think Japan's got health care figured out: doctor's just don't get paid nearly as much.
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Mongrel

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #383 on: December 14, 2010, 07:32:38 AM »

Well, the Japanese can get away with that because Japanese are less likely to emigrate for cultural reasons (not that they don't leave, but it's at a reduced rate).

It's worth trotting out the statistic that shows the US pays nearly double on health as compared to next western countries with comparable care. Most of that money goes to the health insurance industries.
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NexAdruin

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #384 on: December 14, 2010, 07:40:54 AM »

Let's say the doctors do emigrate because they don't feel they're getting paid enough. Where they gonna go? If we pay nearly twice what the next guy pays and we decide to cut back a little, as long as we don't cut it in half we're still the best market.
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Thad

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #385 on: December 14, 2010, 08:12:35 AM »

But I'm only using the word wrong if you accept - stubbornly - that the only meaning for "in the pocket of" is to mean it literally, and that the phrase has no other meaning.



On-topic:

The point of the individual mandate was, more or less as I understand it, to get rid of the excuse that 'health care costs are high because of the uninsured', who apparently get sick or injured and then hospitals get stuck writing off the bills. Of course, the argument leaves out the fact that hospitals always got tax writeoffs and subsidies for this, but whatever!

In any case, the ruling is completely irrelevant.

Indeed; he upheld everything else about the healthcare bill except the mandate.  Hardly the rousing GOP victory it's being depicted as.  EJ Dionne and Ezra Klein have more.

It probably won't reach the supreme court,

Oh, it almost certainly will.  What we've got right now are two district court rulings upholding the mandate, and a third upholding everything but the mandate.  The SCOTUS is bound to take this one, but the only part of the bill that's under debate at this point would seem to be the mandate.

Honestly I think this is a dumb move on the GOP's part, unless they're trying to prove the supreme court are activists or something????

You're approaching it from the assumption that politicians actually want to accomplish something instead of just shouting about what they're going to accomplish.  This is going to be in the courts for years, and the GOP can use it as an election-year cudgel in the meantime.  They don't expect to win the case, any more than they expect to repeal the bill.

Of course, I'm speaking in generalities.  I find it very easy to believe that, for example, Governor Brewer legitimately believes Arizona will win its challenge.

Because she's a god-damned idiot.
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Mongrel

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #386 on: December 14, 2010, 09:10:20 AM »

Let's say the doctors do emigrate because they don't feel they're getting paid enough. Where they gonna go? If we pay nearly twice what the next guy pays and we decide to cut back a little, as long as we don't cut it in half we're still the best market.

Well, the point is that the US doesn't pay doctors substantially more. The US does pay slightly more - and top fancy-pants specialists do make way WAY more than their counterparts in other countries, but the average pay for rank-and-file physicians isn't that much higher.

At the risk of repeating myself, the giant black hole of the US health system is mostly in insurance costs.
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Catloaf

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #387 on: December 14, 2010, 11:39:41 AM »

At the risk of repeating myself, the giant black hole of the US health system is mostly in insurance costs.

Which means the whole thing could be solved with single-payer!

Seriously, how hard is it for the American average nincompoop to understand that someone doing something for personal gain is going to withhold as much service as possible while making you pay the most possible, versus someone doing something out of legal duty and reimbursement who will just just give you the service as needed with no direct modification?!
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Pacobird

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #388 on: December 14, 2010, 11:46:09 AM »

Quote from: Thad
The SCOTUS is bound to take this one, but the only part of the bill that's under debate at this point would seem to be the mandate.


I don't know if you meant it intentionally by using the word "bound", but this statement is literally true; since lower Federal courts in different circuits have held differently on the same legal question (granting, for a moment, for the sake of argument the baseless assumption that the Circuit courts will uphold all of these decisions), the Supreme Court has an obligation to hear the case for no other reason than to resolve the conflict.  Basically the only way for the SCotUS to deny cert is for the 4th Circuit to overturn this guy but as a practical matter they'd probably hear it anyway.

As for how they'd rule, this is one I would be genuinely uncomfortable betting on.  Kennedy and Scalia would have to go against the spirit, if not the 100% letter, of how they ruled in U.S. v. Raich (CA medical marijuana case), but that isn't necessarily to say they wouldn't.  That said, who knows what Kennedy will do anyway.
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Rico

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #389 on: December 14, 2010, 11:49:29 AM »

I know I've said this before somewhere, but my ex-girlfriend's father, who's one of the best heart surgeons in the country and has an incredible success rate pays literally half of his on-its-face impressive salary in malpractice insurance.
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Pacobird

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #390 on: December 14, 2010, 11:56:04 AM »

Yeah, I've talked about this with a doctor friend from college and her position is that if it meant there would be lower malpractice premiums (because the government pays for additional care so like 80% of the damages are covered unless you kill a guy) and that she wouldn't have to deal with insurance company billing ever again, she'd gladly take the 30% pay cut of a Canadian doctor.
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Detonator

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #391 on: December 14, 2010, 07:14:43 PM »

But I'm only using the word wrong if you accept - stubbornly - that the only meaning for "in the pocket of" is to mean it literally, and that the phrase has no other meaning.

I was just perusing the Little Lytton and ran into this:
Quote
The saying “I have got your back” almost never has the literal meaning of receipt or possession of another’s spine.
-Chip Snaxley, quoting wikipedia.org entry on figures of speech

From dictionary.com:
Quote
Since the early 20th century, literally has been widely used as an intensifier meaning “in effect, virtually,” a sense that contradicts the earlier meaning “actually, without exaggeration”: The senator was literally buried alive in the Iowa primaries. The parties were literally trading horses in an effort to reach a compromise.  The use is often criticized; nevertheless, it appears in all but the most carefully edited writing. Although this use of literally irritates some, it probably neither distorts nor enhances the intended meaning of the sentences in which it occurs. The same might often be said of the use of literally in its earlier sense “actually”: The garrison was literally wiped out: no one survived.

I'm sorry that I find this more interesting than the actual topic.
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Thad

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #392 on: December 15, 2010, 10:01:12 AM »

Oh come on, now you're quoting the exact same example I already took apart last month.

"All but the most carefully edited writing" is clearly hyperbole, and the fact that people commonly misuse a word doesn't mean it's a correct usage.  "Could of" goes back decades and "it's" for a possessive goes back centuries; they're still wrong.
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NexAdruin

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #393 on: December 15, 2010, 11:19:07 AM »

Is there an authority on how the English language is supposed to be written/spoken? Like, Spanish has the Royal Academy, which dictates correct grammar/pronunciation/everything about the language (they recently changed the names of a couple of letters). Does English have anything like that, besides "well my English professor said this and he has five PhD's?"
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Mongrel

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #394 on: December 15, 2010, 01:40:17 PM »

I guess the Oxford English Dictionary probably comes closest, but the short answer is no.

Too bad nobody asked Orwell (only semi-relevant, but any excuse to post it will do...)
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Detonator

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #395 on: December 15, 2010, 04:56:55 PM »

"Could of" goes back decades and "it's" for a possessive goes back centuries; they're still wrong.

I don't think it's the same to compare a grammatical error to the misuse of a word.  I do agree that it's wrong to use "literally" to mean the opposite, I just found it interesting that some dictionaries are beginning to relent (while I doubt any grammatical authority would even consider condoning the examples you gave).
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"Imagine punching somebody so hard that they turned into a door. Then you found out that's where ALL doors come from, and you got initiated into a murder club that makes doors. The stronger you punch, the better the door. So there are like super strong murderers who punch people into Venetian doors and shit"

Royal☭

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #396 on: December 15, 2010, 06:19:03 PM »

It's as if the language is changing literally all the time.

MarsDragon

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #397 on: December 15, 2010, 06:54:17 PM »

Seriously, how hard is it for the American average nincompoop to understand that someone doing something for personal gain is going to withhold as much service as possible while making you pay the most possible, versus someone doing something out of legal duty and reimbursement who will just just give you the service as needed with no direct modification?!

Because CAPITALISM IS ALWAYS BETTER FREE MARKET

From talking with my dad I think they also believe that insurance companies won't rip them off because "they're supposed to make an honourable profit!". It's...really weird. It's like they think corporations want to take care of them.
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Norondor

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #398 on: December 15, 2010, 07:09:42 PM »

corporations are God for secular people who don't know better. that's really all there is to it.
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Classic

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #399 on: December 15, 2010, 07:41:21 PM »

Norondor, do you want to know exactly how many dangerously divisive declarations you've just made? Those are triple Ds there. You can't tackle things like that lightly.

It's like they think corporations want to take care of them.
Well, people want to take care of other people. And even if corporations aren't basically people, they're made up of people, and you've met some people in corporations who want to take care of you.

... Unfortunately they're co-working with everyone else in the corporation who would just as soon shit on your lukewarm corpse if it profited them.
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