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Author Topic: Friend or WOE  (Read 4985 times)

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Kazz

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Friend or WOE
« on: June 08, 2008, 03:35:44 PM »

Once upon a time, there was a game show called Friend or Foe.  It was really just a practical application for the Prisoner's Dilemma.

A pair of contestants would team up to answer trivia questions.  The most questions they got correct, the more money they earned.  At the end, however, they were isolated from one another, and they had to choose either "Friend" or "Foe."  If both of them picked "Friend," they split the money they earned.  If one of them picked "Friend" and the other picked "Foe," the Foe would take home all of the money.  If they both picked "Foe," they went home with nothing.

I'd like to do this for at least one WOE event this year.  Partners earn points, then try to dick each other over at the end.  However, actual trivia is out of the question, because lol internet.  So, what sort of point-accumulating partnership can be sullied by the tormenting demons of greed?
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Detonator

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Re: Friend or WOE
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2008, 03:38:28 PM »

This would be boring because everyone knows that the correct answer is to unquestioningly choose "Friend"  :justasplanned:
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Guild

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Re: Friend or WOE
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2008, 03:41:17 PM »

Foe.
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Ted Belmont

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Re: Friend or WOE
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2008, 03:44:10 PM »

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MarsDragon

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Re: Friend or WOE
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2008, 07:47:02 PM »

Yeah, if you know it's coming all you have to do is convince the other guy it's better to play together then to try and dick people over. And in a community like this it's more of an ongoing game where there could be various consequences for screwing someone, which messes with the payoffs.

Best chance you'd have would be to pair up people that already hate each other so they're more likely at least go for the 'Foe' option because they already hate the other guy, so they don't get anything out of seeing him happy at the end and they don't mind if he hates them for screwing him out of the prizes. (also if they don't mind getting screwed out of their prizes)
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Thad

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Re: Friend or WOE
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2008, 08:50:25 PM »

...See, MY instinct is to point out that there is only one correct solution to classical prisoner's dilemma.  If you choose any option besides screwing the other guy, you're doing it wrong.

Or are we talking about the iterative model?  (Which also has only one correct solution, which is doing what the other guy does.)  Iterative model with noise?  Any other particular variation?
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MarsDragon

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Re: Friend or WOE
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2008, 10:06:20 PM »

The dominant strategy is to screw the other guy, yes. However, the Prisoner's Dilemma is the classic example of an equilibrium that results in both parties losing out. So if you can convince the other guy not to screw you over and hold up your end of the bargain, you both end up better than if you went with the screwing each other strategy. This requires both of you getting more utility out of helping each other than if you convinced the guy you'd help him and then stab him in the back.  :>_>:

I dunno, I derive a lot of utility from screwing over Kazz's plans. More than screwing over my hypothetical partner for the riches of the Worst? Maybe!
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Kazz

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Re: Friend or WOE
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2008, 10:16:59 PM »

Or are we talking about the iterative model?  (Which also has only one correct solution, which is doing what the other guy does.)

That's closest.  The fact that there's just one trial means that just automatically repeating Foe is not the best solution, especially because, if you both pick Foe, you end up with squat.

My strategy would just be to say, "I'm picking Friend.  If you pick Foe, that's fine, but everybody will know you're a dick.  If you're okay with that, be my guest."  And the trick is: I'd actually be picking Friend.
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Thad

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Re: Friend or WOE
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2008, 11:49:05 PM »

This requires both of you getting more utility out of helping each other than if you convinced the guy you'd help him and then stab him in the back.  :>_>:

My strategy would just be to say, "I'm picking Friend.  If you pick Foe, that's fine, but everybody will know you're a dick.  If you're okay with that, be my guest."  And the trick is: I'd actually be picking Friend.

But that is an illogical choice.  The logical choice is to convince the other guy to pick "friend" and actually pick "foe" (which should itself be impossible, because if he sincerely thinks you're picking "friend", he should logically pick "foe").  If there is only one trial, you gain absolutely nothing from picking "friend".  Unless you want forum drama to result from it, in which case it is a fucking bad game.
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Brentai

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Re: Friend or WOE
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2008, 11:54:19 PM »

I just really don't want to play this at all, honestly.
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Guild

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Re: Friend or WOE
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2008, 12:16:27 AM »

I'm all about this. To make it less do-or-die (not my preference) you could have five rounds rather than just one.
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Thad

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Re: Friend or WOE
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2008, 12:57:22 AM »

But there's STILL a mathematically best solution to the iterative version.
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Kazz

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Re: Friend or WOE
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2008, 04:55:53 AM »

fine screw it
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Guild

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Friend or WOE
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2008, 05:11:59 AM »

Can I ask why in the living heck you've allowed fun-hating Thad to dissuade you from Friend or WOE?

He can just not participate if he thinks it's so damned stupid.

It obviously worked as a gameshow and it would work here too.
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Kazz

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Friend or WOE
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2008, 07:19:35 AM »

 :LISTENU: I'M THE DECIDER
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Thad

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Friend or WOE
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2008, 10:16:47 AM »

Ah, Guild.  Once again you behave as if hard mathematics were some kind of matter of opinion that people can agree to disagree on.

Kazz: He is actually right that I shouldn't be deciding how you run the show.  Do whatever you want.  But I still maintain that any strategic variation to classic Prisoner's Dilemma requires that the participants not know math.  Or, worse, fear forum drama spilling out over it.
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Guild

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Friend or WOE
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2008, 10:40:29 AM »

A) In some cases 1+1=3.
B) Strategy is a matter of choice, sometimes even the "wrong" one.
C) I'd love to play poker with you some time: You clearly don't know how to hold your cards close to your chest.
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Thad

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Re: Friend or WOE
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2008, 10:51:23 AM »

A) In some cases 1+1=3.

Either you're suggesting a "noisy" version of ITD (which is actually quite clever) or you're an idiot.

B) Strategy is a matter of choice, sometimes even the "wrong" one.
C) I'd love to play poker with you some time: You clearly don't know how to hold your cards close to your chest.

And I'd like to play tic-tac-toe against you sometime and watch you brag about the strategic genius of opening with a middle-side spot.

...Actually, I wouldn't.  That just sounds painful to watch.

The point is, some games only have one correct way to play them.
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Kazz

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Re: Friend or WOE
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2008, 10:59:17 AM »

I'm not sure who's misunderstanding whom.  I'll break down my interpretation.

If a player picks Friend, he will either get 0% of the reward or 50% of the reward.  If a player picks Foe, he will either get 0% of the reward or 100% of the reward.  Therefore, it is always mathematically correct to pick Foe.

No matter what a player picks, he is always trusting the other player to pick Friend.  Neither strategy pays off if the other player picks Foe.  The objective is to be sure that the other player has convinced to pick Friend, even though it is the option with the lower potential reward.  How you accomplish that is up to you.

I think you can both agree on that.

Thad's point is well taken, though.  The game should be modified a bit.  I think there should be more than one variable in play.  I'll work on this soon.
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Guild

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Re: Friend or WOE
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2008, 11:12:08 AM »

Friend, Foe or Safety

Friend/Friend: Both players get 50%
Friend/Foe: Foe gets 100%
Foe/Foe: Both players get 0%
Friend/Safety: Friend gets 75%, Safety gets 25%
Foe/Safety: Foe gets 25%, Safety gets 75%
Safety/Safety: Both players get 50%

And Thad, be a man and play Poker with me. I will make you believe in additive gains.
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